What experiences happiness in Nibbana?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
TRobinson465
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Re: What experiences happiness in Nibbana?

Post by TRobinson465 » Tue Jul 17, 2018 6:28 am

robertk wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 6:21 am
TRobinson465 wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 6:12 am
robertk wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:50 am
all there is is dukkha, and the end of dukkha.

What could be happier than the final end of dukkha.
I was thinking the same thing. But I sorta feel like some people would rather just have several long experiences in truly "happy" realms like the heaven or brahma realms than just disappear. although this could certainly be a wrong way of thinking about life i feel like many people would prefer this to ceasing to exist.
Well, let's be honest. Most of us would enjoy winning lotto, and having power and the trappings - even in this life. And lots of pleasure and bliss and peace for a long time in other realms doesn't sound so bad.

But only total ending of the khandhas is the real extinction of dukkha.
Yeah i feel like most people would prefer that except for the people really into Buddhism and discussing dhamma and the suffering of life (ie. people who use this forum). Even when i heard people explain the jhanic bliss realms of the brahmas or the "true self" versions of nibbana to some kids, most of them were like wow, that sounds boring. id rather just go to Paranimmita-vasavatti over and over.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

TRobinson465
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Re: What experiences happiness in Nibbana?

Post by TRobinson465 » Tue Jul 17, 2018 6:30 am

TRobinson465 wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 6:28 am
Even when i heard people explain the jhanic bliss realms of the brahmas or the "true self" versions of nibbana to some kids, most of them were like wow, that sounds boring. id rather just go to Paranimmita-vasavatti over and over.
I know that sounds funny, but im serious. This actually happened. even things like the brahma realm, which is supposed to be a greater happiness than the sense heavens, don't appeal to a lot of people outside the hardcore Dhamma nerds.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

pegembara
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Re: What experiences happiness in Nibbana?

Post by pegembara » Tue Jul 17, 2018 6:42 am

TRobinson465 wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 6:12 am
robertk wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:50 am
all there is is dukkha, and the end of dukkha.

What could be happier than the final end of dukkha.
I was thinking the same thing. But I sorta feel like some people would rather just have several long experiences in truly "happy" realms like the heaven or brahma realms than just disappear. although this could certainly be a wrong way of thinking about life i feel like many people would prefer this to ceasing to exist.
It isn't that they ceased to exist. The so-called self/atta never existed. It is more like awakening from the illusion of existence.
“Then, having understood Brahmā’s invitation, out of compassion for beings, I surveyed the world with the eye of an Awakened One. As I did so, I saw beings with little dust in their eyes and those with much, those with keen faculties and those with dull, those with good attributes and those with bad, those easy to teach and those hard, some of them seeing disgrace & danger in the other world. Just as in a pond of blue or red or white lotuses, some lotuses—born & growing in the water—might flourish while immersed in the water, without rising up from the water; some might stand at an even level with the water; while some might rise up from the water and stand without being smeared by the water—so too, surveying the world with the eye of an Awakened One, I saw beings with little dust in their eyes and those with much, those with keen faculties and those with dull, those with good attributes and those with bad, those easy to teach and those hard, some of them seeing disgrace & danger in the other world.

“Having seen this, I answered Brahmā Sahampati in verse:

‘Open are the doors to the deathless.

Let those with ears show their conviction.

Let them show their conviction.

Perceiving trouble, O Brahmā,

I did not tell people

the refined,

sublime Dhamma.’

https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/MN/MN26.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

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Sam Vara
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Re: What experiences happiness in Nibbana?

Post by Sam Vara » Tue Jul 17, 2018 6:45 am

TRobinson465 wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 6:30 am
TRobinson465 wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 6:28 am
Even when i heard people explain the jhanic bliss realms of the brahmas or the "true self" versions of nibbana to some kids, most of them were like wow, that sounds boring. id rather just go to Paranimmita-vasavatti over and over.
I know that sounds funny, but im serious. This actually happened. even things like the brahma realm, which is supposed to be a greater happiness than the sense heavens, don't appeal to a lot of people outside the hardcore Dhamma nerds.
I remember a dhamma talk in which a monk (Ajahn Natthiko, now Bjorn Lindeblad) referred to this very question. "Peace", he said, "is an acquired taste!".

TRobinson465
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Re: What experiences happiness in Nibbana?

Post by TRobinson465 » Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:01 am

pegembara wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 6:42 am


It isn't that they ceased to exist. The so-called self/atta never existed. It is more like awakening from the illusion of existence.
that's a great way of putting it actually. I think that was the most helpful explanation I've gotten. Thank you very much for your input! :anjali:
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

TRobinson465
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Location: United States

Re: What experiences happiness in Nibbana?

Post by TRobinson465 » Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:02 am

Sam Vara wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 6:45 am
TRobinson465 wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 6:30 am
TRobinson465 wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 6:28 am
Even when i heard people explain the jhanic bliss realms of the brahmas or the "true self" versions of nibbana to some kids, most of them were like wow, that sounds boring. id rather just go to Paranimmita-vasavatti over and over.
I know that sounds funny, but im serious. This actually happened. even things like the brahma realm, which is supposed to be a greater happiness than the sense heavens, don't appeal to a lot of people outside the hardcore Dhamma nerds.
I remember a dhamma talk in which a monk (Ajahn Natthiko, now Bjorn Lindeblad) referred to this very question. "Peace", he said, "is an acquired taste!".
True, i suppose that's why the Buddha was reluctant to teach at first. very few people could grasp it.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

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pitakele
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Re: What experiences happiness in Nibbana?

Post by pitakele » Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:38 am

TRobinson465 wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 3:21 am
So, my question is, if there is no self and nibbana is the greatest bliss, what is it that experiences this bliss?
According to my understanding, the conundrum is that there never was a self, there is no self now and there never will be a self. Whatever happiness or unhappiness is being experienced at any time is not being experienced by a self. It is just happiness or unhappiness. (Experiencing 'self' is misperception based on not seeing clearly, ignorance)

Because of avijjā, we grasp at our experiences and this, in turn, creates a causal sequence conditioning further unhappiness. When we learn to see through our conditioning and gradually let go of grasping, our happiness increases. The mind that has no grasping at all is happiness in itself.

To directly answer your question, at the time of the highest lokiya happinesses, e.g. giving, serving, pure love, meditational states etc., the sense of self is diminished and the heart feels free and embellished. Thus, when there is no sense of self at all, the conceit 'I am' having been dispelled, this is the highest happiness , nibbāna.

Asmimānassa yo vinayo,
etaṃ ve paramaṃ sukham [Ud 2.1]

Dispelling of the conceit 'I am',
Indeed, this is the highest happiness.

Bhārā have pañcakkhandhā,
bhārahāro ca puggalo;
Bhārādānaṃ dukhaṃ loke,
bhāranikkhepanaṃ sukhaṃ [S, 22, 3, 22]

Heavy indeed are the five aggregates,
And the bearer of the load is the individual.
Bearing this load is suffering in this world,
Putting it down is happiness.

Note: post written with great difficulty - on a smartphone in a bus on a bumpy winding road in Himachal Pradesh 🙃 😊 🙃
now here = nowhere

rightviewftw
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Re: What experiences happiness in Nibbana?

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Jul 17, 2018 12:09 pm

imo If one postulates experience beyond time, experience of by and in a singleness, void of the duality of the experienced and the experiencer, when postulating such experience one can not expect to communicate the meaning of what one talks about as a rule because normally self is discerned in light of not-self and experience assumes that there is the experiencer and the experienced with a beginning and an end of the experience, so these concepts become distorted to the point that they become nonsensical and do not apply.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

chownah
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Re: What experiences happiness in Nibbana?

Post by chownah » Tue Jul 17, 2018 12:45 pm

What experiences happiness in nibbana?

I think that wherever and whenever you think that there is some happiness going around and you want to know what experieces that happiness you should try to pinpoint the exact happiness you are talking about and where it arises....I think this will help you see what or how it is experienced.......I guess....don't know for sure.....
chownah

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cappuccino
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Re: What experiences happiness in Nibbana?

Post by cappuccino » Tue Jul 17, 2018 2:16 pm

TRobinson465 wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:01 am
pegembara wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 6:42 am


It isn't that they ceased to exist. The so-called self/atta never existed. It is more like awakening from the illusion of existence.
that's a great way of putting it actually. I think that was the most helpful explanation I've gotten. Thank you very much for your input! :anjali:

It's very misleading, since you exist.

SunWuKong
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Re: What experiences happiness in Nibbana?

Post by SunWuKong » Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:11 pm

I believe the distinction being made as Buddha expounded the Dharma, that unlike the Vedanta view, that Atman and Brahman are yoked together, that it is anatta, that rather atta is a false view. Why Hindus hate this view is that it undermines the eternal integrity of both Souls and Gods.

My answer to “what experiences happiness of Nibanna?” Is simply “what is asking?”

I listened to a preacher explaining on TV that we have an eternal, immortal, imperishable soul, but only if we agree with him. What arose within me is “who the hell do you think you are?” - a fully legitimate question, if a faith system is based solely on what one works out as a believable set of precepts to themselves, at one point does it become a truth for everyone? Ultimately that’s the problem with any and all eternalist views, they are never establishing themselves in anything but personalities with agendas and views.

Remember Buddha refers to Nibanna as “deathless” - if he saw that it was annihilation he would have simply called it “death”

markandeya
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Re: What experiences happiness in Nibbana?

Post by markandeya » Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:29 pm

SunWuKong wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:11 pm
I believe the distinction being made as Buddha expounded the Dharma, that unlike the Vedanta view, that Atman and Brahman are yoked together, that it is anatta, that rather atta is a false view. Why Hindus hate this view is that it undermines the eternal integrity of both Souls and Gods.
As a vedantist I am not sure where you get this from, maybe from neo advaitist which is not vedanta. Or some of the older out of date translations.

atta and annata has nothing to do Atma Brahman, as Buddha did not talk directly about any ultimate reality, this is common knowledge with Buddhist, so its best not to include whats not there originally.

As I understand with this in mind atta and anatta, is one of the main reasons why Theravada was written in pali and not sanskrit. So we if we take the context that atta self was only in reference to the 5 skandhas then anatta is a denial of 5 skandhas or identifying with the 5 skandas, its quite simple. So to equate it with Atma Brahman does make any sense at all, not even literally speaking. Translating Atma as an individual soul is neither in Buddhism or Vedanta, it was introduced by Christian doctrines.

SunWuKong
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Re: What experiences happiness in Nibbana?

Post by SunWuKong » Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:35 pm

markandeya wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:29 pm
SunWuKong wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:11 pm
I believe the distinction being made as Buddha expounded the Dharma, that unlike the Vedanta view, that Atman and Brahman are yoked together, that it is anatta, that rather atta is a false view. Why Hindus hate this view is that it undermines the eternal integrity of both Souls and Gods.
As a vedantist I am not sure where you get this from, maybe from neo advaitist which is not vedanta. Or some of the older out of date translations.

atta and annata has nothing to do Atma Brahman, as Buddha did not talk directly about any ultimate reality, this is common knowledge with Buddhist, so its best not to include whats not there originally.

As I understand with this in mind atta and anatta, is one of the main reasons why Theravada was written in pali and not sanskrit. So we if we take the context that atta self was only in reference to the 5 skandhas then anatta is a denial of 5 skandhas or identifying with the 5 skandas, its quite simple. So to equate it with Atma Brahman does make any sense at all, not even literally speaking. Translating Atma as an individual soul is neither in Buddhism or Vedanta, it was introduced by Christian doctrines.
You’re asking me to walk you through the Sutta Pitaka?

markandeya
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Re: What experiences happiness in Nibbana?

Post by markandeya » Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:40 pm

SunWuKong wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:35 pm
markandeya wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:29 pm
SunWuKong wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:11 pm
I believe the distinction being made as Buddha expounded the Dharma, that unlike the Vedanta view, that Atman and Brahman are yoked together, that it is anatta, that rather atta is a false view. Why Hindus hate this view is that it undermines the eternal integrity of both Souls and Gods.
As a vedantist I am not sure where you get this from, maybe from neo advaitist which is not vedanta. Or some of the older out of date translations.

atta and annata has nothing to do Atma Brahman, as Buddha did not talk directly about any ultimate reality, this is common knowledge with Buddhist, so its best not to include whats not there originally.

As I understand with this in mind atta and anatta, is one of the main reasons why Theravada was written in pali and not sanskrit. So we if we take the context that atta self was only in reference to the 5 skandhas then anatta is a denial of 5 skandhas or identifying with the 5 skandas, its quite simple. So to equate it with Atma Brahman does make any sense at all, not even literally speaking. Translating Atma as an individual soul is neither in Buddhism or Vedanta, it was introduced by Christian doctrines.
You’re asking me to walk you through the Sutta Pitaka?
No just to use some simple logic and organise the right context

:anjali:

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cappuccino
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Re: What experiences happiness in Nibbana?

Post by cappuccino » Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:16 pm

markandeya wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:29 pm
Atma Brahman
Brahman = consciousness.

The content of consciousness is inconstant.

Inconstancy is stressful.

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