Where is the Buddha?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
diamind
Posts: 23
Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2017 7:26 am

Where is the Buddha?

Post by diamind » Sun Jul 15, 2018 1:50 pm

Where is the Buddha now? What happens when you attain nirvana? And whats the difference between parinirvana and everyday normal nirvana?

User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 1481
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am

Re: Where is the Buddha?

Post by cappuccino » Sun Jul 15, 2018 3:51 pm

Heedfulness is the path to the Deathless. Heedlessness is the path to death. The heedful die not. The heedless are as if dead already.
Appamadavagga

User avatar
Aloka
Posts: 5782
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:51 pm

Re: Where is the Buddha?

Post by Aloka » Sun Jul 15, 2018 4:07 pm

'
Where is the Buddha now ? He's in the teachings.

Here's a quote from the late Buddhadasa Bhikkhu which might help.

As you know, the word "Buddha" in everyday language refers to the historical Enlightened Being, Gotama Buddha. It refers to a physical man of flesh and bone who was born in India over two thousand years ago, died, and was cremated. This is the meaning of the word "Buddha" in everyday language.

Considered in terms of Dhamma language, however, the word "Buddha" refers to the Truth which the historical Buddha realized and taught, namely the Dhamma itself. The Buddha said:

One who sees the Dhmnma sees the Tathagata. One who sees the Tathagata sees the Dhamma. One who sees not the Dhamma, though grasping at the robe of the Tathagata, cannot be said to have seen the Tathagata.

Now, the Dhamma is something intangible. It is not something physical, certainly not flesh and bones. Yet the Buddha said it is one and the same as the Enlightened One. "One who sees the Dhamma sees the Tathagata." Anyone who fails to see the Dhamma cannot be said to have seen the Enlightened One. So in Dhamma language, the Buddha is one and the same as that Truth by virtue of which he became the Buddha, and anyone who sees that Truth can be said to have seen the true Buddha. To see just his physical body would not be to see the Buddha at all and would bring no real benefit.

During the Buddha's lifetime, the majority of people were unfavorably disposed towards him. Some abused him and even did him physical harm. They didn't understand him because what they saw was only his physical body, the outer shell, the Buddha of everyday language. The real Buddha, the Buddha of Dhamma language, is the Truth in his mind, knowing which the man became "Buddha". When he said, "Whoever sees the Truth sees me. Whoever sees me sees the Truth," he was speaking Dhamma language.

Again, the Buddha said, "The Dhamma and the Vinaya (Discipline), which I have proclaimed and have demonstrated, these shall be your teacher when I have passed away." Thus the real Buddha has not passed away, has not ceased to exist. What ceased to exist was just the physical body, the outer shell. The real Teacher, that is, the Dhamma-Vinaya, is still with us. This is the meaning of the word "Buddha" in Dhamma language. The "Buddha" of everyday language is the physical man; the "Buddha" of Dhamma language is the Dhamma itself, which made him Buddha.

http://www.dhammatalks.net/Books5/Bhikk ... nguage.htm

:anjali:

markandeya
Posts: 193
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2018 11:33 am

Re: Where is the Buddha?

Post by markandeya » Sun Jul 15, 2018 4:42 pm

Buddha that is beyond both birth and death, becoming and disintegration , existence and nonexistence.

But you if one wants to really know then one would need to be enlightened.

Where is his continuum, thats within the heart of the dhamma that we all seek to know.

User avatar
Polar Bear
Posts: 1158
Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2012 7:39 am
Location: Bear Republic

Re: Where is the Buddha?

Post by Polar Bear » Sun Jul 15, 2018 4:51 pm

The Buddha is Tathagata: Thus-Gone, the Buddha is Sugata: Well-Gone
As long as his body remains he will be seen by gods and humans. But when his body breaks up, after life has ended, gods and humans will see him no more.”

https://suttacentral.net/dn1/en/sujato
“As a flame overthrown by the force of the wind, Upasīva,” said the Gracious One,
“goes to rest and can no longer be discerned,
just so the Sage free from the mental body
goes to rest and can no longer be discerned.”

“The one who has come to rest, is he then nothing?” said venerable Upasīva,
“or is he actually eternally healthy?
Please explain this to me, O Sage,
for this Teaching has been understood by you.”

“There is no measure of the one who has come to rest, Upasīva,” said the Gracious One,
“there is nothing by which they can speak of him,
when everything has been completely removed,
all the pathways for speech are also completely removed.”

https://suttacentral.net/snp5.7/en/anandajoti
:anjali:
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

markandeya
Posts: 193
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2018 11:33 am

Re: Where is the Buddha?

Post by markandeya » Sun Jul 15, 2018 5:11 pm

Hari Hara


Upasiva

Upa~near

shiva~auspicious

Tathagata

Tat~ Brahman

Gatha- agatha~ both here and there, within and without

Vishnu~all pervasive

:stirthepot:

User avatar
Lucas Oliveira
Posts: 778
Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2015 10:07 pm

Re: Where is the Buddha?

Post by Lucas Oliveira » Sun Jul 15, 2018 5:11 pm

itivuttaka: the buddha’s sayings
the section of the threes

92. The Hem of the Robe

This was said by the Lord…

“Bhikkhus, even though a bhikkhu might hold on to the hem of my robe and follow close behind me step by step, if he is covetous for objects of desire, strongly passionate, malevolent, corrupt in thought, unmindful, uncomprehending, unconcentrated, of wandering mind and uncontrolled faculties, he is far from me and I am far from him. What is the reason? That bhikkhu does not see Dhamma. Not seeing Dhamma, he does not see me.

“Bhikkhus, even though a bhikkhu might live a hundred leagues away, if he is not covetous for objects of desire, not strongly passionate, not malevolent, uncorrupt in thought, with mindfulness established, clearly comprehending, concentrated, of unified mind and controlled faculties, he is close to me and I am close to him. What is the reason? That bhikkhu sees Dhamma. Seeing Dhamma, he sees me.”

Though closely following behind,
Full of longings and resentment,
See how far away he is—
The desirous one from the desireless,
One unquenched from the quenched,
A greedy one from the one without greed.

But a wise person who by direct knowledge
Has fully understood the Dhamma,
Becomes desireless and tranquil
Like a calm unruffled lake.

See how close he is to him—
A desireless one to the desireless,
One quenched to the quenched,
The greedless one to the one without greed.

https://suttacentral.net/iti92/en/ireland

:anjali:
I participate in this forum using Google Translator. http://translate.google.com.br

http://www.acessoaoinsight.net/

User avatar
salayatananirodha
Posts: 147
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:34 am

Re: Where is the Buddha?

Post by salayatananirodha » Sun Jul 15, 2018 6:30 pm

You say, 'Where is the Buddha (now)?' And I say, 'Where was he then?'
16. 'In what has the world originated?' — so said the Yakkha Hemavata, — 'with what is the world intimate? by what is the world afflicted, after having grasped at what?' (167)

17. 'In six the world has originated, O Hemavata,' — so said Bhagavat, — 'with six it is intimate, by six the world is afflicted, after having grasped at six.' (168)

- Hemavatasutta


links:
https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/index.htm
http://thaiforestwisdom.org/canonical-texts/
http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html

User avatar
rightviewftw
Posts: 1773
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Re: Where is the Buddha?

Post by rightviewftw » Sun Jul 15, 2018 6:54 pm

you might want to check out a recent thread where most of your questions were addressed
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=32327
also this teaching:
Iti 2.17; Iti 38
'
This was said by the Blessed One, said by the Arahant, so I have heard: "Monks, there are these two forms of the Unbinding property. Which two? The Unbinding property with fuel remaining, & the Unbinding property with no fuel remaining.

And what is the Unbinding property with fuel remaining? There is the case where a monk is an arahant whose fermentations have ended, who has reached fulfillment, finished the task, laid down the burden, attained the true goal, ended the fetter of becoming, and is released through right gnosis. His five sense faculties still remain and, owing to their being intact, he is cognizant of the agreeable & the disagreeable, and is sensitive to pleasure & pain. His ending of passion, aversion, & delusion is termed the Unbinding property with fuel remaining.[1]

And what is the Unbinding property with no fuel remaining? There is the case where a monk is an arahant whose fermentations have ended, who has reached fulfillment, finished the task, laid down the burden, attained the true goal, ended the fetter of becoming, and is released through right gnosis. For him, all that is sensed, being unrelished, will grow cold right here. This is termed the Unbinding property with no fuel remaining."[2]

These two proclaimed
by the one with vision,
Unbinding properties the one independent,
the one who is Such:[3]
one property, here in this life
with fuel remaining
from the destruction
of the guide to becoming,
and that with no fuel remaining,
after this life,
in which all becoming
totally ceases.

Those who know
this state uncompounded,
their minds released
through the destruction
of the guide to becoming,
they, attaining the Teaching's core,
pleased with ending,
have abandoned all becoming:
they, the Such.

SarathW
Posts: 9805
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Where is the Buddha?

Post by SarathW » Sun Jul 15, 2018 9:00 pm

Where is the Buddha now?
Perhaps you should ask who is the Buddha.
You can't find a Buddha in the ultimate sense.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

cookiemonster
Posts: 165
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2013 4:42 am

Re: Where is the Buddha?

Post by cookiemonster » Sun Jul 15, 2018 9:18 pm

diamind wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 1:50 pm
Where is the Buddha now? What happens when you attain nirvana? And whats the difference between parinirvana and everyday normal nirvana?
IMO the Buddha's lifestream has disbanded into parinibbana, just as a flame disbands when it is blown out. The attainment of nibbana means the attainment of wisdom which ceases all future dukkha. Parinibbana is the full attainment of nibbana without remainder of dukkha.

TRobinson465
Posts: 343
Joined: Thu May 12, 2016 5:29 pm
Location: United States

Re: Where is the Buddha?

Post by TRobinson465 » Mon Jul 16, 2018 3:02 am

cookiemonster wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 9:18 pm
diamind wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 1:50 pm
Where is the Buddha now? What happens when you attain nirvana? And whats the difference between parinirvana and everyday normal nirvana?
IMO the Buddha's lifestream has disbanded into parinibbana, just as a flame disbands when it is blown out. The attainment of nibbana means the attainment of wisdom which ceases all future dukkha. Parinibbana is the full attainment of nibbana without remainder of dukkha.
Actually, according to Thanissaro Bhikkhu, while nibbana does mean blowing out (a flame). The ancient indian understanding of blowing out a flame is different than the western understanding of blowing out a flame. While in the west we think of a flame being blown out as merely disappearing, the contemporaries of the Buddha likely understood blowing out a flame to be freeing it from its bind.
We all know what happens when a fire goes out. The flames die down and the fire is gone for good. So when we first learn that the name for the goal of Buddhist practice, nibbana (nirvana), literally means the extinguishing of a fire, it's hard to imagine a deadlier image for a spiritual goal: utter annihilation. It turns out, though, that this reading of the concept is a mistake in translation, not so much of a word as of an image. What did an extinguished fire represent to the Indians of the Buddha's day? Anything but annihilation.

According to the ancient Brahmans, when a fire was extinguished it went into a state of latency. Rather than ceasing to exist, it became dormant and in that state — unbound from any particular fuel — it became diffused throughout the cosmos. When the Buddha used the image to explain nibbana to the Indian Brahmans of his day, he bypassed the question of whether an extinguished fire continues to exist or not, and focused instead on the impossibility of defining a fire that doesn't burn: thus his statement that the person who has gone totally "out" can't be described.

However, when teaching his own disciples, the Buddha used nibbana more as an image of freedom. Apparently, all Indians at the time saw burning fire as agitated, dependent, and trapped, both clinging and being stuck to its fuel as it burned. To ignite a fire, one had to "seize" it. When fire let go of its fuel, it was "freed," released from its agitation, dependence, and entrapment — calm and unconfined. This is why Pali poetry repeatedly uses the image of extinguished fire as a metaphor for freedom. In fact, this metaphor is part of a pattern of fire imagery that involves two other related terms as well. Upadana, or clinging, also refers to the sustenance a fire takes from its fuel. Khandha means not only one of the five "heaps" (form, feeling, perception, thought processes, and consciousness) that define all conditioned experience, but also the trunk of a tree. Just as fire goes out when it stops clinging and taking sustenance from wood, so the mind is freed when it stops clinging to the khandhas.
https://accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors ... bbana.html
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism"

TRobinson465
Posts: 343
Joined: Thu May 12, 2016 5:29 pm
Location: United States

Re: Where is the Buddha?

Post by TRobinson465 » Mon Jul 16, 2018 3:10 am

diamind wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 1:50 pm
Where is the Buddha now? What happens when you attain nirvana? And whats the difference between parinirvana and everyday normal nirvana?
I think the question you are getting it is, where are all of the arahants of the past now? What happens when you attain complete nibbana is debatable as the buddha does not describe it. as for nibbana and paranibbana, the Buddha attained nibbana when he enlightened because when he enlightened he permanently freed himself from suffering, rebirth etc. Mahaparanibbana is when he became completely free upon death and the expiration of his physical body.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism"

User avatar
robertk
Posts: 2825
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

Re: Where is the Buddha?

Post by robertk » Mon Jul 16, 2018 5:37 am

TRobinson465 wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 3:02 am


Actually, according to Thanissaro Bhikkhu, while nibbana does mean blowing out (a flame). The ancient indian understanding of blowing out a flame is different than the western understanding of blowing out a flame. While in the west we think of a flame being blown out as merely disappearing, the contemporaries of the Buddha likely understood blowing out a flame to be freeing it from its bind.

Thanissaro's non-orthodox, to put it nicely, beliefs on this and on any matter related to anatta, the heart of the teaching, should be dispensed with.

Here is a quote from a monk who is takes pride in his criticism of the ancients, but even he can't abide nonsense such as the stuff Thanissaro writes about parinibbana:

https://dhammawiki.com/index.php/The_He ... ge,_Part_1
'Nibbana and the Fire Simile' There is a flush of Buddhist literature thriving in the West which attempts to interpret this fire simile in the light of the Vedic myth that the extinguished fire ‘goes into hiding’.

Though the Buddha succeeded in convincing the Brahmin interlocutors of the dependently arisen nature of the fire by the reduction - ad - absurdum method, these scholars seem to be impervious to his arguments. What is worse, misinterpretations have even sought refuge in blatant mistranslations of sacred texts. [...]

TRobinson465
Posts: 343
Joined: Thu May 12, 2016 5:29 pm
Location: United States

Re: Where is the Buddha?

Post by TRobinson465 » Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:13 am

robertk wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 5:37 am
TRobinson465 wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 3:02 am


Actually, according to Thanissaro Bhikkhu, while nibbana does mean blowing out (a flame). The ancient indian understanding of blowing out a flame is different than the western understanding of blowing out a flame. While in the west we think of a flame being blown out as merely disappearing, the contemporaries of the Buddha likely understood blowing out a flame to be freeing it from its bind.

Thanissaro's non-orthodox, to put it nicely, beliefs on this and on any matter related to anatta, the heart of the teaching, should be dispensed with.

Here is a quote from a monk who is takes pride in his criticism of the ancients, but even he can't abide nonsense such as the stuff Thanissaro writes about parinibbana:

https://dhammawiki.com/index.php/The_He ... ge,_Part_1
'Nibbana and the Fire Simile' There is a flush of Buddhist literature thriving in the West which attempts to interpret this fire simile in the light of the Vedic myth that the extinguished fire ‘goes into hiding’.

Though the Buddha succeeded in convincing the Brahmin interlocutors of the dependently arisen nature of the fire by the reduction - ad - absurdum method, these scholars seem to be impervious to his arguments. What is worse, misinterpretations have even sought refuge in blatant mistranslations of sacred texts. [...]
Ironic how the forum generally talks quite nicely of Thanissaro Bhikkhu normally and simply sets aside interpretations he has that they disagree with. If only such civility was equally applied to all other groups and teachers with "heretical" views.

Thank you for the source, its nice getting different opinions on the matter. :anjali:
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism"

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: khemindas and 70 guests