"the path is born"

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Post Reply
Viachh
Posts: 9
Joined: Mon Jun 25, 2018 1:38 pm

"the path is born"

Post by Viachh » Sun Jul 15, 2018 5:52 am

This phrase from Yuganaddha Sutta https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html What do words "born" (arise?) and "path" (the Noble Eightfold Path?) mean here ? Do I understand correctly that we are practicing samatha and vipassana (steps), and the Noble Eightfold Path (landscape) arises spontaneously like a certain landscape spontaneously (automatically) appears in a field of our sight as making certain steps? That is, NEP is the result of doing practice (technique), and not a set of practices (techniques) as it can be often found in the explanations of various teachers.

paul
Posts: 1188
Joined: Tue May 31, 2011 11:27 pm
Location: Vietnam

Re: "the path is born"

Post by paul » Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:42 am

The dhamma is a universal law and the path arises when it is invoked by independent knowledge and practice, and the foundation of the path is morality:

“The teaching of rebirth, taken in conjunction with the doctrine of kamma, implies that we live in a morally ordered universe, one in which our morally determinate actions bring forth fruits that in some way correspond to their own ethical quality. Though the moral law that links our actions with their fruits cannot be demonstrated experimentally in the same way that physical and chemical laws can be, this does not mean it is not real. It means only that, like quarks and quasars, it operates beyond the threshold of sensory perception. Far from being a mere projection of our subjective ideals, the moral law locks our volitional deeds into an all-embracing cosmic order that is perfectly objective in that it functions independently of our personal desires, views, and beliefs. Thus when we submit our behavior to the rule of ethics, we are not simply acting in ways that merit moral approval. By conforming to the principles of ethics we are doing nothing less than aligning ourselves with the Dhamma, the universal law of righteousness and truth which stands at the bedrock of the cosmos.” “Does Rebirth Make Sense”, Bikkhu Bodhi.

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 2522
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: "the path is born"

Post by DooDoot » Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:44 am

Viachh wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 5:52 am
What do words "born" (arise?) and "path" (the Noble Eightfold Path?) mean here ?
"Born" = sañjāyati = to bring forth, produce or similar (such as in DN 18 - "āloko sañjāyati: light came forth" or in AN 4.200 - "Pemā pemaṃ jāyati, pemā doso jāyati: Affection is born of affection. Aversion is born of affection ").

"Path" = "maggo", which, in the Yuganaddha Sutta, appears to refer to the final concluding part of the path for attainment of arahantship.
Ven. Ananda said: "Friends, whoever — monk or nun — declares the attainment of arahantship in my presence, they all do it by means of one or another of four paths. Which four?

Yuganaddha Sutta
:candle:
Viachh wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 5:52 am
Do I understand correctly that we are practicing samatha and vipassana (steps), and the Noble Eightfold Path (landscape) arises spontaneously like a certain landscape spontaneously (automatically) appears in a field of our sight as making certain steps? That is, NEP is the result of doing practice (technique), and not a set of practices (techniques) as it can be often found in the explanations of various teachers.
The Yuganaddha Sutta is reported to be spoken by Ananda rather than by the Buddha. Any sutta spoken by Ananda should be treated with caution. The NEP was taught by the Buddha (rather than by "various teachers"). As the path, it is not the result of samatha & vipassana (as said in the Yuganaddha Sutta) but the cause of samatha vipassana.
Thus for him, having thus developed the noble eightfold path... these two qualities occur in tandem: tranquillity & insight.

MN 149
If any credit is to be given to Ananda in the Yuganaddha Sutta, it might be concluded Ananda is referring to the final conclusion of the NEP that leads to the attainment of arahantship; what is described below in the Tenfold Path:
Of those, right view is the forerunner. And how is right view the forerunner? In one of right view, right resolve comes into being. In one of right resolve, right speech comes into being. In one of right speech, right action... In one of right action, right livelihood... In one of right livelihood, right effort... In one of right effort, right mindfulness... In one of right mindfulness, right concentration... In one of right concentration, right knowledge... In one of right knowledge, right release comes into being. Thus the learner is endowed with eight factors and the arahant with ten factors.

MN 117

paul
Posts: 1188
Joined: Tue May 31, 2011 11:27 pm
Location: Vietnam

Re: "the path is born"

Post by paul » Sun Jul 15, 2018 9:52 pm

While sila is the foundation, samadhi and vipassana-panna work in a complementary interaction in purifying view further towards awakening, and they are each composed of three factors:

Investigation,effort, joy= insight factors
(this confirms there is an aspect of joy to insight).

tranquility, contentration, equinimity= serenity factors

“The seven factors also work together to find balance between the energizing and the calming aspects of meditation. Investigation, effort, and joy are energizing and can be called on when energy is too low; tranquility, concentration, and equanimity are calming and can be called on when energy is too high. Mindfulness itself is called the ‘great balancer’ because the clear recognition of imbalance by mindfulness helps bring the other factors into balance.”—-“The Ordinary and The Seven Factors of Awakening,” Gil Fronsdal.

Whether the practitioner develops insight first or serenity first overall, depends on temperament.

The seven factors of awakening are the noble eightfold path presented from a working perspective, for example the first three factors are equivalent to right mindfulness, right view and right effort.

justindesilva
Posts: 764
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2016 12:38 pm

Re: "the path is born"

Post by justindesilva » Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:29 am

This is why and where a buddhist starts with panca sila. The first five factors of arya ashtanga marga is observed
here.

User avatar
rightviewftw
Posts: 1773
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Re: "the path is born"

Post by rightviewftw » Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:56 am

As i understand it;
We are developing the mind so that we attain cessation, thus attaining the path to cessation and knowledge of the destruction of taints. In one who has gone to the end of the world the path to the end of the world is born at the moment of reaching the end. A being goes to the end and cannot go beyond so the end of the world is the end of what constitutes a being. That which is of delusion does not go beyond delusion so with the culmination of discernment delusion ends and that which is of delusion does not go beyond, knowing the beyond one knows the destruction of delusion.

We are developing above all the five spiritual faculties, four main areas of mindfulness, four right exertions, five strengths, four bases of power, seven factors of enlightenment, the NEP.

User avatar
Pseudobabble
Posts: 689
Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:11 am
Location: London

Re: "the path is born"

Post by Pseudobabble » Tue Jul 17, 2018 8:00 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:44 am
. As the path, it is not the result of samatha & vipassana (as said in the Yuganaddha Sutta) but the cause of samatha vipassana.
Thus for him, having thus developed the noble eightfold path... these two qualities occur in tandem: tranquillity & insight.

MN 149
:goodpost:
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha

User avatar
budo
Posts: 326
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 12:16 am
Location: The world

Re: "the path is born"

Post by budo » Tue Jul 17, 2018 8:53 am

paul wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:42 am
The dhamma is a universal law and the path arises when it is invoked by independent knowledge and practice, and the foundation of the path is morality:

“The teaching of rebirth, taken in conjunction with the doctrine of kamma, implies that we live in a morally ordered universe, one in which our morally determinate actions bring forth fruits that in some way correspond to their own ethical quality. Though the moral law that links our actions with their fruits cannot be demonstrated experimentally in the same way that physical and chemical laws can be, this does not mean it is not real. It means only that, like quarks and quasars, it operates beyond the threshold of sensory perception. Far from being a mere projection of our subjective ideals, the moral law locks our volitional deeds into an all-embracing cosmic order that is perfectly objective in that it functions independently of our personal desires, views, and beliefs. Thus when we submit our behavior to the rule of ethics, we are not simply acting in ways that merit moral approval. By conforming to the principles of ethics we are doing nothing less than aligning ourselves with the Dhamma, the universal law of righteousness and truth which stands at the bedrock of the cosmos.” “Does Rebirth Make Sense”, Bikkhu Bodhi.
I think the argument that Bhikkhu Bodhi makes is seriously flawed. Quarks and quasars are not beyond of the threshold of sensory perception, otherwise we wouldn't know they exist. Yes they're not perceptible by an ordinary human eye, but they are perceptible by instruments humans have developed, like the Hadron Particle Collider. All science depends on objective evidence that must be observed and repeated in some form or another otherwise it is not science. I used to be a huge fan of Murray Gell-Mann, the discoverer of the quark, and I read a lot of his books on science and life. At the end of the day if there is no experimental and observable evidence that is reproducible, then it is not science.

Likewise the reason the Buddha knows karma exists is because he attained supernatural knowledge into his 100,000+ past lives, divine eye into beings arising and passing, using a mindmade body to visit these other planes of existences, etc.. Buddhism at the end of the day rests on this claim of supernatural powers when it comes to karma and rebirth.

Yes, Buddhism has benefits here and now, obviously maintaining the precepts and not taking drugs and going to places where people are likely to hurt themselves will prevent suffering this is simply probability and odds no different than statistics used to measure crime, but beyond that rebirth and karma depend on supernatural claims and thus it makes it a religion based on faith, and not a science.

Now the only way to prove these claims for one's self is to follow the path the Buddha laid out and attain and master the jhanas and from there the supernatural powers.

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 2522
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: "the path is born"

Post by DooDoot » Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:16 am

budo wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 8:53 am
he attained supernatural knowledge into his 100,000+ past lives, divine eye into beings arising and passing...
It appears the sutta don't say supernormal powers were required for recollection of past abodes (pubbe nivasa); particularly the version in SN 22.79, which appears to require very ordinary cognition together with the realisation of emptiness (sunnata).
paul wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:42 am
Though the moral law that links our actions with their fruits cannot be demonstrated experimentally in the same way that physical and chemical laws can be, this does not mean it is not real.
Actions and their fruits can be demonstrated experimentally. Around 30 years ago, as a uni student, i was paid money to be experimented on by a research psychologist; who attacked my mind with various stimulus, including electric shocks, and then measured my brains mental reactions via electrodes. In the same way, the results of greed, hatred & delusion can be known both experimentally & meditatively.
budo wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 8:53 am
beyond that rebirth and karma depend on supernatural claims and thus it makes it a religion based on faith, and not a science.
The Dhamma is said to be sanditthiko akaliko etc (visible here & now; inviting inspection, etc). Arahants, such as Sariputta, had no supernormal powers.

paul
Posts: 1188
Joined: Tue May 31, 2011 11:27 pm
Location: Vietnam

Re: "the path is born"

Post by paul » Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:53 am

Bikkhu Bodhi says that the action of kamma cannot be demonstrated experimentally, but I maintain that as cause and effect it can and should be known personally, as belief in the action of kamma constitutes the first stage of right view. My practice is based on observation of the fruition of actions, a direct knowledge which allows initiating actions to be centred on an impersonal motivation, thus avoiding reactive responses involving anger and impatience. Observation of the action of kamma is an essential foundation, but it should not become an obsession where every minute action is examined.

User avatar
Pseudobabble
Posts: 689
Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:11 am
Location: London

Re: "the path is born"

Post by Pseudobabble » Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:48 am

paul wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:53 am
Bikkhu Bodhi says that the action of kamma cannot be demonstrated experimentally, but I maintain that as cause and effect it can and should be known personally, as belief in the action of kamma constitutes the first stage of right view. My practice is based on observation of the fruition of actions, a direct knowledge which allows initiating actions to be centred on an impersonal motivation, thus avoiding reactive responses involving anger and impatience. Observation of the action of kamma is an essential foundation, but it should not become an obsession where every minute action is examined.
:goodpost:
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha

User avatar
budo
Posts: 326
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 12:16 am
Location: The world

Re: "the path is born"

Post by budo » Tue Jul 17, 2018 3:17 pm

paul wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:53 am
Bikkhu Bodhi says that the action of kamma cannot be demonstrated experimentally, but I maintain that as cause and effect it can and should be known personally, as belief in the action of kamma constitutes the first stage of right view. My practice is based on observation of the fruition of actions, a direct knowledge which allows initiating actions to be centred on an impersonal motivation, thus avoiding reactive responses involving anger and impatience. Observation of the action of kamma is an essential foundation, but it should not become an obsession where every minute action is examined.
He is making the argument that there is a moral order in the cosmos and universe and this is karma, and that it cannot be perceived objectively just like quarks cannot be, which is false on at least three counts:1) Quarks can be objectively observed and perceived repeatedly 2) Karma is objectively observed by the Buddha. The four noble truths is the hypothesis of the Buddha, and the noble eightfold path is the method, you are supposed to follow his steps to arrive at the same results he arrives at and thus evaluate the hypothesis of the four noble truths.

If it wasn't objective then there would be no objective method that would reap results like the noble eightfold path which is different from other religions where only Moses or Jesus are gifted with revelation powers and no one else, those are personal powers, not objective powers. The Buddha is saying that his powers are objective and that if anyone desires they can work towards attaining them. Yes faith is required in trusting the hypothesis and method, but that's about it.

3) Scientists do not believe in a moral universe, the universe is quite chaotic with suns exploding, asteroids shooting into different projectiles and destroying pieces of planets, etc.. The universe is quite chaotic even though we can simulate and predict small time frames like asteroid projections, for the most part the universe is too complex to calculate even for our most powerful super computers. Lastly, plenty of murderers and criminals get away with their crimes and die rich and happy, Buddhism gets around this by saying they will suffer at a later time for their actions, like in a future life. This is where supernormal powers are required to confirm karma and rebirth portion of the hypothesis, so the tool here is supernormal powers rather than technology that scientists use like telescopes and computers. Buddhism is still a religion that requires faith in the supernatural, although it attempts at being objective by saying anyone can attain these powers if they follow the steps.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 32 guests