Do you think ignorance is abandoned in the beginning when attaining stream entry ?

[sentinel]

Greetings ,

It is believed that in the paticasamuppada process ignorance is abandoned when one attain liberation ie arahant . But , which are the texts clearly stating that ?

[salayatananirodha]

"There are these ten fetters. Which ten? Five lower fetters & five higher fetters. And which are the five lower fetters? Self-identity views, uncertainty, grasping at precepts & practices, sensual desire, & ill will. These are the five lower fetters. And which are the five higher fetters? Passion for form, passion for what is formless, conceit, restlessness, & ignorance. These are the five higher fetters. And these are the ten fetters."
Sanyojana Sutta

[DooDoot]

Do you think ignorance is abandoned in the beginning when attaining stream entry ?

Yes; ignorance would be "abandoned". However, the fetter of ignorance would not be uprooted or cut.

Right view is the forerunner.

What is the right view that is noble, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path? The discernment, the faculty of discernment, the strength of discernment, analysis of qualities as a factor for awakening, the path factor of right view in one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is without effluents (anāsava), who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is the right view that is noble, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path.

MN 117

[sentinel]

Do you think ignorance is abandoned in the beginning when attaining stream entry ?

Yes; ignorance would be "abandoned". However, the fetter of ignorance would not be uprooted or cut.

Right view is the forerunner.

What is the right view that is noble, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path? The discernment, the faculty of discernment, the strength of discernment, analysis of qualities as a factor for awakening, the path factor of right view in one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is without effluents (anāsava), who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is the right view that is noble, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path.

MN 117

Can you explain why ignorance is abandoned yet not uprooted ?

[chownah]

I don't think that ignorance is "abandoned"....at least not in the usual sense of the word "abandoned" as used in the english language. I am not stuck on using the usual sense of the word but if we are to assume an un-usual sense of the word then I think it would be good if we could define the sense of the word we are using. In other words, what does it mean to "abandon" ignorance. Example: Can someone ignorant of algebra just abandon their ignorance of algebra?
chownah

[sentinel]

In Buddhism , when a person gain insight into the nature of paticasamuppada , penetrating the transiency and not self characteristics , the veil of ignorance is said being lifted , therefore it is called abandoned .
But , the Question is , does the ignorance cut off at the initial stage or at the end stage ie arahant .

[User1249x]

In Buddhism , when a person gain insight into the nature of paticasamuppada , penetrating the transiency and not self characteristics , the veil of ignorance is said being lifted , therefore it is called abandoned .
But , the Question is , does the ignorance cut off at the initial stage or at the end stage ie arahant .

some attain arahantship right away so it depends on mind's development prior to the arising of the path and the occurence of cessation. Either way after the realization one has either destroyed the taints or they will eventually be destroyed in a relatively short time.

[DooDoot]

Can you explain why ignorance is abandoned yet not uprooted ?

There is enough wisdom/Right View to give up craving so to enter the path but not enough vipassana/Right Knowledge to uproot the tendency (anusaya) to craving. In meditation, the stream-enterer is free from craving but, when out of meditation, certain sense objects still give rise to craving (such as getting annoyed when have a debate with Doot on DW).

Of those, right view is the forerunner. And how is right view the forerunner? In one of right view, right resolve comes into being. In one of right resolve, right speech comes into being. In one of right speech, right action... In one of right action, right livelihood... In one of right livelihood, right effort... In one of right effort, right mindfulness... In one of right mindfulness, right concentration... In one of right concentration, right knowledge... In one of right knowledge, right release comes into being. Thus the learner is endowed with eight factors, and the arahant with ten.

MN 117

some attain arahantship right away....

Example?

[User1249x]

some attain arahantship right away....

Example?

the bodhisatta

[DooDoot]

the bodhisatta

My impression, particularly from SN 12.10, is the Bodhisatta had a gradual awakening.

[User1249x]

the bodhisatta

My impression, particularly from SN 12.10, is the Bodhisatta had a gradual awakening.

he clearly attained Arahantship... There are other examples in the Sutta where groups of people attain Arahantship, ie the group of 5 ascetics where one of them attained Stream-Entry after the first discourse and Arahantship after second discourse whilst the other 4 guys attained Arahantship after second discourse if i remember correctly.

[DooDoot]

There are other examples in the Sutta where groups of people attain Arahantship, ie the group of 5 ascetics where one of them attained Stream-Entry after the first discourse and Arahantship after second discourse whilst the other 4 guys attained Arahantship after second discourse if i remember correctly.

It was probably a few weeks between the 1st and 2nd discourse. The other four ascetics might possibly have attained stream-entry and even jhana (one-returner or non-returner) before the 2nd discourse. A dodgy sutta like the Bahiya Sutta makes claims to Arahantship but this appears not possible because it appears Bahiya did not have time to practise vipassana (as below) before unmindfully walking into a cow and coming off 2nd best.

"And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents? There is the case where a monk remains focused on arising & falling away with reference to the five clinging-aggregates: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is feeling, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is perception, such its origination, such its passing away. Such are fabrications, such their origination, such their passing away. Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

[User1249x]

There are other examples in the Sutta where groups of people attain Arahantship, ie the group of 5 ascetics where one of them attained Stream-Entry after the first discourse and Arahantship after second discourse whilst the other 4 guys attained Arahantship after second discourse if i remember correctly.

It was probably a few weeks between the 1st and 2nd discourse. The other four ascetics might possibly have attained stream-entry and even jhana (one-returner or non-returner) before the 2nd discourse. A dodgy sutta like the Bahiya Sutta makes claims to Arahantship but this appears not possible because it appears Bahiya did not have time to practise vipassana (as below) before unmindfully walking into a cow and coming off 2nd best.

"And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents? There is the case where a monk remains focused on arising & falling away with reference to the five clinging-aggregates: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is feeling, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is perception, such its origination, such its passing away. Such are fabrications, such their origination, such their passing away. Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

You have impressive imagination friend.

[DooDoot]

You have impressive imagination friend.

Thank you, kind sir. I also enjoy early nights.

[sentinel]

Can you explain why ignorance is abandoned yet not uprooted ?

There is enough wisdom/Right View to give up craving so to enter the path but not enough vipassana/Right Knowledge to uproot the tendency (anusaya) to craving. In meditation, the stream-enterer is free from craving but, when out of meditation, certain sense objects still give rise to craving (such as getting annoyed when have a debate with Doot on DW).

Of those, right view is the forerunner. And how is right view the forerunner? In one of right view, right resolve comes into being. In one of right resolve, right speech comes into being. In one of right speech, right action... In one of right action, right livelihood... In one of right livelihood, right effort... In one of right effort, right mindfulness... In one of right mindfulness, right concentration... In one of right concentration, right knowledge... In one of right knowledge, right release comes into being. Thus the learner is endowed with eight factors, and the arahant with ten.

MN 117

Stream entry already abandoned the ignorance .
But not the craving .


Vijjā Sutta AN 10.105

Vijjā, bhikkhave, pubbaṅgamā kusalānaṃ dhammānaṃ samāpattiyā, anvadeva hirottappaṃ. Vijjāgatassa, bhikkhave, viddasuno sammādiṭṭhi pahoti, sammādiṭṭhikassa sammāsaṅkappo pahoti, sammāsaṅkappassa sammāvācā pahoti, sammāvācassa sammākammanto pahoti, sammākammantassa sammāājīvo pahoti, sammāājīvassa sammāvāyāmo pahoti, sammāvāyāmassa sammāsati pahoti, sammāsatissa sammāsamādhi pahoti, sammāsamādhissa sammāñāṇaṃ pahoti, sammāñāṇissa sammāvimutti pahotī”ti.