Can we teach Anicca, Dukkha , Anatta without the teaching of rebirth and Kamma?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
SarathW
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Can we teach Anicca, Dukkha , Anatta without the teaching of rebirth and Kamma?

Post by SarathW » Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:55 pm

Can we teach Anicca, Dukkha , Anatta without the teaching of rebirth and Kamma?
Another question is whether we can attain Nibbana without talking about rebirth and Kamma.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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DooDoot
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Re: Can we teach Anicca, Dukkha , Anatta without the teaching of rebirth and Kamma?

Post by DooDoot » Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:15 pm

Did the Buddha (in SN 22.59) teach Anicca, Dukkha , Anatta without the teaching of rebirth and Kamma?

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cappuccino
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Re: Can we teach Anicca, Dukkha , Anatta without the teaching of rebirth and Kamma?

Post by cappuccino » Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:24 pm

suffering is much more serious because of many lives

it's almost irrelevant without many lives

SarathW
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Re: Can we teach Anicca, Dukkha , Anatta without the teaching of rebirth and Kamma?

Post by SarathW » Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:35 pm

What is my present suffering got to do with rebirth and Kamma (Vipaka of next life)?
What Buddha taught was the suffering, reason, path and the elimination of suffering.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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DooDoot
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Re: Can we teach Anicca, Dukkha , Anatta without the teaching of rebirth and Kamma?

Post by DooDoot » Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:15 pm

SarathW wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:35 pm
What is my present suffering got to do with...
What does any suffering got to do with anicca, dukkha & anatta? :shrug:
O monks, the well-instructed noble disciple, seeing thus, gets wearied of form, gets wearied of feeling, gets wearied of perception, gets wearied of mental formations, gets wearied of consciousness. Being wearied he becomes passion-free. In his freedom from passion, he is emancipated. Being emancipated, there is the knowledge that he is emancipated. He knows: 'birth is exhausted, lived is the holy life, what had to be done is done, there is nothing more of this becoming.

SN 22.59

SarathW
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Re: Can we teach Anicca, Dukkha , Anatta without the teaching of rebirth and Kamma?

Post by SarathW » Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:17 am

gets wearied
What is the Pali word for "Wearied"?

Which means you can attain Nibbana without believing in kamma or another life.
Do you have to believe in Kamma and rebirth to be wearied?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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mikenz66
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Re: Can we teach Anicca, Dukkha , Anatta without the teaching of rebirth and Kamma?

Post by mikenz66 » Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:53 am

SarathW wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:17 am
gets wearied
What is the Pali word for "Wearied"?

Which means you can attain Nibbana without believing in kamma or another life.
Do you have to believe in Kamma and rebirth to be wearied?
Seeing this, a learned noble disciple becomes disillusioned with form, feeling, perception, choices, and consciousness.
Evaṃ passaṃ, bhikkhave, sutavā ariyasāvako rūpasmimpi nibbindati, vedanāyapi nibbindati, saññāyapi nibbindati, saṅkhāresupi nibbindati, viññāṇasmimpi nibbindati.

Being disillusioned they become dispassionate. Being dispassionate they’re freed. When freed, they know ‘it is freed’.
Nibbindaṃ virajjati; virāgā vimuccati. Vimuttasmiṃ vimuttamiti ñāṇaṃ hoti.

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.59/en/sujato#11.1--11.2
:heart:
Mike

SarathW
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Re: Can we teach Anicca, Dukkha , Anatta without the teaching of rebirth and Kamma?

Post by SarathW » Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:14 am

Thanks Mike.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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salayatananirodha
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Re: Can we teach Anicca, Dukkha , Anatta without the teaching of rebirth and Kamma?

Post by salayatananirodha » Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:46 am

My reply on this topic viewtopic.php?p=480384#p480384 applies here as well. To drive home that point as well,

Now, there are two destinations for a person with wrong view, I tell you: either hell or the animal womb."
- Talaputa Sutta
16. 'In what has the world originated?' — so said the Yakkha Hemavata, — 'with what is the world intimate? by what is the world afflicted, after having grasped at what?' (167)

17. 'In six the world has originated, O Hemavata,' — so said Bhagavat, — 'with six it is intimate, by six the world is afflicted, after having grasped at six.' (168)

- Hemavatasutta


links:
https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/index.htm
http://thaiforestwisdom.org/canonical-texts/
http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html

SarathW
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Re: Can we teach Anicca, Dukkha , Anatta without the teaching of rebirth and Kamma?

Post by SarathW » Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:07 am

Now, there are two destinations for a person with wrong view, I tell you: either hell or the animal womb."
- Talaputa Sutta
What stops if someone said that not believe in creator God is the wrong view and for them the destination is the animal womb or the hell?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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salayatananirodha
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Re: Can we teach Anicca, Dukkha , Anatta without the teaching of rebirth and Kamma?

Post by salayatananirodha » Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:10 am

I don't understand what you mean.
16. 'In what has the world originated?' — so said the Yakkha Hemavata, — 'with what is the world intimate? by what is the world afflicted, after having grasped at what?' (167)

17. 'In six the world has originated, O Hemavata,' — so said Bhagavat, — 'with six it is intimate, by six the world is afflicted, after having grasped at six.' (168)

- Hemavatasutta


links:
https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/index.htm
http://thaiforestwisdom.org/canonical-texts/
http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html

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LG2V
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Re: Can we teach Anicca, Dukkha , Anatta without the teaching of rebirth and Kamma?

Post by LG2V » Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:13 am

You could, I suppose, but the latter is a logical extension of the former. The two concepts are ultimately inseparable (besides release into Nibbana), imo.
Here are some excellent sites for giving free Dana (Click-Based Donation):
http://freerice.comhttp://greatergood.com/www.ripple.orgwww.thenonprofits.com

SarathW
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Re: Can we teach Anicca, Dukkha , Anatta without the teaching of rebirth and Kamma?

Post by SarathW » Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:24 am

I don't understand what you mean.
What I am saying is you can't accept things only on faith.
Say if someone asks you to accept that the God create the world will you accept it?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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salayatananirodha
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Re: Can we teach Anicca, Dukkha , Anatta without the teaching of rebirth and Kamma?

Post by salayatananirodha » Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:45 am

Why would you accept the three marks of existence teaching without accepting kamma and rebirth? I'm aware that you could, but you'd be getting it from someone other than the buddha, thus not explained correctly.
16. 'In what has the world originated?' — so said the Yakkha Hemavata, — 'with what is the world intimate? by what is the world afflicted, after having grasped at what?' (167)

17. 'In six the world has originated, O Hemavata,' — so said Bhagavat, — 'with six it is intimate, by six the world is afflicted, after having grasped at six.' (168)

- Hemavatasutta


links:
https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/index.htm
http://thaiforestwisdom.org/canonical-texts/
http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html

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Sam Vara
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Re: Can we teach Anicca, Dukkha , Anatta without the teaching of rebirth and Kamma?

Post by Sam Vara » Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:55 am

salayatananirodha wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:45 am
Why would you accept the three marks of existence teaching without accepting kamma and rebirth? I'm aware that you could, but you'd be getting it from someone other than the buddha, thus not explained correctly.
It might be that some people accept what they can. The three marks are comprehensible to them, whereas kamma (at least, the kamma with post mortem fruition) and rebirth are incomprehensible. This appears to be the position of many "secular Buddhists" such as Stephen Batchelor.

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