Non-Returner

[walker8476]

If a non-returner is not reborn into the human realm, how do humans become Arahants?

[TRobinson465]

If a non-returner is not reborn into the human realm, how do humans become Arahants?

If one was to attain non-returner status and die, they would not return to earth, they would go to a pure abode upon death and enlighten there. This is only the case if a non-returner dies as a non-returner. you can attain a stage of enlightenment and progress further in the same lifetime. You can attain non-returner and then become an arahant in the same life. In the case of Ananda he was a stream enterer and then became an arahant. you dont necessarily have to follow the order step by step or go up one stage each life. you can go up stages in the same life.

[budo]

Humans become Arahants by being born as:

- No path, entering stream entry and advancing quickly to arahant
- Stream enterers who have 6 or less human rebirths remaining, and advancing to arahant
- Once-returners and advancing to arahant

[DooDoot]

If one was to attain non-returner status and die, they would not return to earth, they would go to a pure abode upon death and enlighten there.

Buddha gained enlightenment by insight into 4 noble truths (clung-to-five-aggregates) and Dependent Origination (which includes kaya-body-sankhara; nama-rupa made of four physical elements and also five physical sense spheres & sense contacts). So how does a Non-Returner attain full enlightenment without physicality (rupa khandha and five sense faculties)?

[budo]

If one was to attain non-returner status and die, they would not return to earth, they would go to a pure abode upon death and enlighten there.

. So how does a Non-Returner attain full enlightenment without physicality (rupa khandha and five sense faculties)?

Devas still have a body, it just does not contain water and earth. They have a mind made body. Heat (Fire) and Air (Movement) are still rupa.

"With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, he directs and inclines it to creating a mind-made body. From this body he creates another body, endowed with form, made of the mind, complete in all its parts, not inferior in its faculties. Just as if a man were to draw a reed from its sheath. The thought would occur to him: 'This is the sheath, this is the reed. The sheath is one thing, the reed another, but the reed has been drawn out from the sheath.' Or as if a man were to draw a sword from its scabbard. The thought would occur to him: 'This is the sword, this is the scabbard. The sword is one thing, the scabbard another, but the sword has been drawn out from the scabbard.' Or as if a man were to pull a snake out from its slough. The thought would occur to him: 'This is the snake, this is the slough. The snake is one thing, the slough another, but the snake has been pulled out from the slough.' In the same way — with his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, the monk directs and inclines it to creating a mind-made body. From this body he creates another body, endowed with form, made of the mind, complete in all its parts, not inferior in its faculties."

[DooDoot]

They have a mind made body. Heat (Fire) and Air (Movement) are still rupa.

Thanks for this effort, Budo, however I do not find it particularly convincing given the suttas refer to an "ascetic" creating the mind-made kaya. Also, 'kaya' does not necessarily mean 'rupa'.

"With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, he directs and inclines it to creating a mind-made body. From this body he creates another body, endowed with form, made of the mind, complete in all its parts, not inferior in its faculties. Just as if a man were to draw a reed from its sheath. The thought would occur to him: 'This is the sheath, this is the reed. The sheath is one thing, the reed another, but the reed has been drawn out from the sheath.' Or as if a man were to draw a sword from its scabbard. The thought would occur to him: 'This is the sword, this is the scabbard. The sword is one thing, the scabbard another, but the sword has been drawn out from the scabbard.' Or as if a man were to pull a snake out from its slough. The thought would occur to him: 'This is the snake, this is the slough. The snake is one thing, the slough another, but the snake has been pulled out from the slough.' In the same way — with his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, the monk directs and inclines it to creating a mind-made body. From this body he creates another body, endowed with form, made of the mind, complete in all its parts, not inferior in its faculties.

"This, too, great king, is a fruit of the contemplative life, visible here and now, more excellent than the previous ones and more sublime.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

[budo]

They have a mind made body. Heat (Fire) and Air (Movement) are still rupa.

Thanks for this effort, Budo, however I do not find it particularly convincing given the suttas refer to an "ascetic" creating the mind-made kaya. Also, 'kaya' does not necessarily mean 'rupa'.

"With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, he directs and inclines it to creating a mind-made body. From this body he creates another body, endowed with form, made of the mind, complete in all its parts, not inferior in its faculties. Just as if a man were to draw a reed from its sheath. The thought would occur to him: 'This is the sheath, this is the reed. The sheath is one thing, the reed another, but the reed has been drawn out from the sheath.' Or as if a man were to draw a sword from its scabbard. The thought would occur to him: 'This is the sword, this is the scabbard. The sword is one thing, the scabbard another, but the sword has been drawn out from the scabbard.' Or as if a man were to pull a snake out from its slough. The thought would occur to him: 'This is the snake, this is the slough. The snake is one thing, the slough another, but the snake has been pulled out from the slough.' In the same way — with his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, the monk directs and inclines it to creating a mind-made body. From this body he creates another body, endowed with form, made of the mind, complete in all its parts, not inferior in its faculties.

"This, too, great king, is a fruit of the contemplative life, visible here and now, more excellent than the previous ones and more sublime.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Yes you are right but I am just saying that if our mind can make a full body with all its faculities, I do not see why a deva cannot. If you look at dependent origination consciousness precedes name and form.

Sankhara -> Consciousness -> Name & Form all precede becoming and birth. Since a deva still has craving (tanha) they still have ignorance, sankhara (formations/intention/will) and as a result consciousness. Once you have consciousness then it will latch/grasp on to the primary elements (air, water, fire, earth),

I believe only the formless jhana heaven realms do not have the remaining senses of seeing and hearing.

[DooDoot]

Yes you are right but I am just saying that if our mind can make a full body with all its facilities, I do not see why a deva cannot. If you look at dependent origination consciousness precedes name and form.

Consciousness does not necessarily precede nama-rupa. Based on the various suttas, they appear to arise together. In fact, suttas such as SN 22.82 and SN 22.56 say nama-rupa is the cause (hetu) for consciousness.

Sankhara -> Consciousness -> Name & Form all precede becoming and birth. Since a deva still has craving (tanha) they still have ignorance, sankhara (formations/intention/will) and as a result consciousness. Once you have consciousness then it will latch/grasp on to the primary elements (air, water, fire, earth),

I think your idiosyncratic interpretation here is probably for another topic. ""Will/intention" ("cetana") appears 1st mentioned within "nama". Again, it merely appears to be an idiosyncratic interpretation that "sankhara" is "intention" ("cetana").

[budo]

Yes you are right but I am just saying that if our mind can make a full body with all its facilities, I do not see why a deva cannot. If you look at dependent origination consciousness precedes name and form.

Consciousness does not necessarily precede nama-rupa. Based on the various suttas, they appear to arise together. In fact, suttas such as SN 22.82 and SN 22.56 say nama-rupa is the cause (hetu) for consciousness.

Sankhara -> Consciousness -> Name & Form all precede becoming and birth. Since a deva still has craving (tanha) they still have ignorance, sankhara (formations/intention/will) and as a result consciousness. Once you have consciousness then it will latch/grasp on to the primary elements (air, water, fire, earth),

I think your idiosyncratic interpretation here is probably for another topic. ""Will/intention" ("cetana") appears 1st mentioned within "nama". Again, it merely appears to be an idiosyncratic interpretation that "sankhara" is "intention" ("cetana").

I don't know, the sutta MN 38 Maha tanha sankaya sutta seems pretty clear about it

"And this name-&-form has what as its cause... through what is it brought into being?

"Name-&-form has consciousness as its cause...

"And this consciousness has what as its cause... through what is it brought into being?

"Consciousness has fabrications as its cause...

"And these fabrications have what as their cause... through what are they brought into being?

"Fabrications have ignorance as their cause, ignorance as their origination, are born from ignorance, are brought into being from ignorance.

"From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications.
From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness.
From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form.
From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media.
From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact.
From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling.
From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving.
From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance.
From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming.
From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth.
From birth as a requisite condition, then aging-&-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

But we can leave these interpretation arguments for another time.

[DooDoot]

I don't know, the sutta MN 38 Maha tanha sankaya sutta seems pretty clear about it

Not at all. MN 38 is just one version. Since the twelve conditions must be explained in a certain order, one condition must be placed before another. I think there are enough suttas that support the view that nama-rupa & consciousness arise together.

[budo]

I don't know, the sutta MN 38 Maha tanha sankaya sutta seems pretty clear about it

Not at all. MN 38 is just one version. Since the twelve conditions must be explained in a certain order, one condition must be placed before another. I think there are enough suttas that support the view that nama-rupa & consciousness arise together.

Assuming we are both correct this still dispels your original question about non-returners and having a form. In the case of humans, consciousness precedes the human form because the Gandhabba must be present. So the Gandhabba already has consciousness and a form as well, as well as sense faculties.

"'Do you know how there is the descent of an embryo?'

"'Yes, master, we know how there is the descent of an embryo. There is the case where the mother & father have come together, the mother is fertile, and a gandhabba [the being about to be reborn] is standing present. The coming together of these three is the descent of the embryo.

'

So it appears all beings have sense faculties until you arrive at the formless jhana realms.

[DooDoot]

Assuming we are both correct this still dispels your original question about non-returners and having a form. In the case of humans, consciousness precedes the human form because the Gandhabba must be present. So the Gandhabba already has consciousness and a form as well, as well as sense faculties.

The suttas do not say this. Again, it is just your personal intepretation. The suttas only refer to the six-fold consciousness; dependent upon sense organs, as said in MN 38. It sounds like your view here is the same view as Bhikhu Sati and SarathW.

"'Do you know how there is the descent of an embryo?'

"'Yes, master, we know how there is the descent of an embryo. There is the case where the mother & father have come together, the mother is fertile, and a gandhabba [the being about to be reborn] is standing present. The coming together of these three is the descent of the embryo.

'

The sutta does not say this. which is why the words are in brackets. "Gandhabba" could simply refer to "sperm".

So it appears all beings have sense faculties until you arrive at the formless jhana realms.

The Buddha, Sariputta ,etc, all practised formless jhana but had sense facilities (which were dormant in jhana but still existing). Thus MN 43 says in the "9th jhana" the five physical faculties become exceptionally clean (even though they don't function).

[budo]

Assuming we are both correct this still dispels your original question about non-returners and having a form. In the case of humans, consciousness precedes the human form because the Gandhabba must be present. So the Gandhabba already has consciousness and a form as well, as well as sense faculties.

The suttas do not say this. Again, it is just your personal intepretation.

"'Do you know how there is the descent of an embryo?'

"'Yes, master, we know how there is the descent of an embryo. There is the case where the mother & father have come together, the mother is fertile, and a gandhabba [the being about to be reborn] is standing present. The coming together of these three is the descent of the embryo.

'

The sutta does not say this. which is why the words are in brackets.

So it appears all beings have sense faculties until you arrive at the formless jhana realms.

The Buddha, Sariputta ,etc, all practised formless jhana but had sense facilities (which were dormant in jhana but still existing). Thus MN 43 says in the "9th jhana" the five physical faculties become exceptionally clean (even though they don't function).

How can this be interpreted in another way?

"Bhikkhus, the conception of an embryo in a womb takes place through the union of three things. Here, there is the union of the mother and father, but it is not the mother’s season and the gandhabba is not present - in this case there is no conception of an embryo in a womb. Here, there is the union of the mother and father and it is the mother’s season, but the gandhabba is not present - in this case too there is no conception of an embryo in a womb. But when there is the union of the mother and father and it is the mother’s season and the gandhabba is present, through the union of these three things the conception of an embryo in a womb takes place.

The mother then carries the embryo in her womb for nine or ten months with much anxiety, as a heavy burden. Then, at the end of nine or ten months, the mother gives birth with much anxiety, as a heavy burden. Then, when the child is born, she nourishes it with her own blood; for the mother’s breast-milk is called blood in the Noble One’s (ariya) training."

Can you please explain how this can be interpreted in another way?

From my understanding the Buddha could not teacher his teachers Alara Kalama and Uddaka Ramaputta the Dhamma because they were reborn in 7th and 8th jhana realms where they cannot see or hear the dhamma.

[DooDoot]

How can this be interpreted in another way?

Coitus interruptus

"Bhikkhus, the conception of an embryo in a womb takes place through the union of three things. Here, there is the union [sexual intercourse] of the mother and father, but it is not the mother’s season [ovum] and the sperm is not present - in this case there is no conception of an embryo in a womb. Here, there is the union of the mother and father and it is the mother’s season, but the sperm is not present - in this case too there is no conception of an embryo in a womb. But when there is the union of the mother and father and it is the mother’s season and the sperm is present, through the union of these three things the conception of an embryo in a womb takes place.

[DooDoot]

From my understanding the Buddha could not teacher his teachers Alara Kalama and Uddaka Ramaputta the Dhamma because they were reborn in 7th and 8th jhana realms where they cannot see or hear the dhamma.

Where was this "understanding" acquired from? I do not recall this written in MN 26.

"Then the thought occurred to me, 'To whom should I teach the Dhamma first? Who will quickly understand this Dhamma?' Then the thought occurred to me, 'This Alara Kalama is wise, competent, intelligent. He has long had little dust in his eyes. What if I were to teach him the Dhamma first? He will quickly understand this Dhamma.' Then devas came to me and said, 'Lord, Alara Kalama died seven days ago.' And knowledge & vision arose within me: 'Alara Kalama died (kālaṅkato) seven days ago.' The thought occurred to me, 'A great loss has Alara Kalama suffered. If he had heard this Dhamma, he would have quickly understood it.'

"Then the thought occurred to me, 'To whom should I teach the Dhamma first? Who will quickly understand this Dhamma?' Then the thought occurred to me, 'This Uddaka Ramaputta is wise, competent, intelligent. He has long had little dust in his eyes. What if I were to teach him the Dhamma first? He will quickly understand this Dhamma.' Then devas came to me and said, 'Lord, Uddaka Ramaputta died last night.' And knowledge & vision arose within me: 'Uddaka Ramaputta died last night.' The thought occurred to me, 'A great loss has Uddaka Ramaputta suffered. If he had heard this Dhamma, he would have quickly understood it.'