Non-Returner

[TRobinson465]

I am talking about break up of the kaya. since this is literally a discussion about my option of words now. this is right.

The word ""kaya" does not appear to necessarily mean the "physical body".

i know it doesnt necessarily mean that. just like dhamma doesnt necessarily mean the buddhas dhamma it can mean phenomenon, and nibbana doesnt necessarily mean the end of suffering. it also means blowing out [a candle]. language is a very complicated thing.

[DooDoot]

i have no idea what that has to do with upon death.

SN 55.8 to 10 appear to be about your concerns, namely, the ending of the life (kālaṅkato) of a non-returner. Note, the word used is "kālaṅkato" ("end of time") rather than "marana" ("death"). Also to note is how the Buddha appears to scold Ananda for his personal pre-occupation this matter.

[TRobinson465]

i have no idea what that has to do with upon death.

SN 55.8 to 10 appear to be about your concerns, namely, the ending of the life (kālaṅkato) of a non-returner. Note, the word used is "kālaṅkato" ("end of time") rather than "marana" ("death"). Also to note is how the Buddha appears to scold Ananda for his personal pre-occupation this matter.

nice delayed answer, but with the constant tangents you are bringing up this is very time consuming. as the buddha said, all things decay, strive for liberation with diligence. Since it is much better for me to use the time i have before i decay striving for liberation than answering your frequent tangents. I will just say you are right about all the random points you made and take my leave. As i dont see any other way out. I hope the OP got his answer.

[DooDoot]

I will just say you are right about all the random points you made and take my leave. As i dont see any other way out. I hope the OP got his answer.

Also to note is how the Buddha appears to scold Ananda for his personal pre-occupation this matter. It is not my good self wasting time like Ananda.

[TRobinson465]

I will just say you are right about all the random points you made and take my leave. As i dont see any other way out. I hope the OP got his answer.

Also to note is how the Buddha appears to scold Ananda for his personal pre-occupation this matter.

thank you for the lesson

[DooDoot]

thank you for the lesson

What lesson? Self-view appears to still be imputed upon a Non-Returner; as though the Non-Returner is an Atman or Being.

[TRobinson465]

thank you for the lesson

What lesson?

the thing u repeated twice

[DooDoot]

the thing u repeated twice

OK. Thank you for chatting & sharing.

[DooDoot]

Samadhi and Jhana states are irreversible, one can slip back into ordinary lower states but when the path is retaken it brings one swiftly back to that position where they started off from. By not returning it means that one has cut the root of samasara, it may take a while for the fan to stop completely.

Hi Markandeya

In support of your theory, in the Pali suttas, the stock phrase for the Non-Returner is as follows:

...with the ending of the five lower fetters are spontaneously arisen. They are extinguished there, and are not liable to return from that world.

....pañcannaṃ orambhāgiyānaṃ saṃyojanānaṃ parikkhayā opapātikā tattha parinibbāyino anāvattidhammā tasmā lokā—

Doing a sutta search for the term "anāvattidhammā" seems to find this term found only in one sutta where it is not used in this stock phrase. However, here, it is used in relation to the Arahant, as follows:

… ‘My mind is not liable to return to sensual becoming/existence’

‘anāvattidhammaṃ me cittaṃ kāmabhavāyā’

… ‘My mind is not liable to return to form becoming/existence.’

‘anāvattidhammaṃ me cittaṃ rūpabhavāyā’

… ‘My mind is not liable to return to formless becoming/existence’

‘anāvattidhammaṃ me cittaṃ arūpabhavāyā’

https://suttacentral.net/an9.26/en/sujato

The term "bhavā" in the suttas appears to be a mental state or defilement.

There are these three fermentations: the fermentation of sensuality, the fermentation of becoming (bhava), the fermentation of ignorance. This is called fermentation.

MN 9

[budo]

@doodoot

Can you please respond to my thread when you get a chance? viewtopic.php?f=13&t=32362

Thank you

[markandeya]

They have a physicality in the pure abode?

Can you quote a sutta that refers to Non-Returners dwelling in "Pure Abodes" (suddhāvāsā)? Thanks. I can only find one sutta.

Five Pure Abodes, to wit, the heavens called Avihā, Atappā, Sudassā, Sudassī, Akaniṭṭha.

Five classes of persons become Never-returners:—one who passes away before middle age in that world in which he has been reborn, one who so passes after middle age, one who so passes without much toil, with ease, one who so passes with toil and difficulty, one who striving ‘upstream’ is reborn in the Akaniṭṭha world.

https://legacy.suttacentral.net/en/dn33
https://suttacentral.net/dn33/en/sujato

Regardless, why does the word "vāsā" necessarily mean another place in the universe? Often "vāsā" is used for mere states of mind.

Bhikkhus, there are these ten abodes (vāsa) of the noble ones in which the noble ones abide in the past, present, or future. What ten?

Here, a bhikkhu (1) has abandoned five factors; (2) possesses six factors; (3) has a single guard (4) and four supports; (5) has dispelled personal truths, (6) totally renounced seeking, (7) purified his intentions, (8) tranquilized bodily activity, and become (9) well liberated in mind and (10) well liberated by wisdom.

AN 10.20

https://suttacentral.net/an10.20/en/bodhi
https://suttacentral.net/an10.20/en/sujato

by human realm it just means that one has taken up the Noble Eightfold Path or has become human being instead of being in lower lokas or abodes or states of existence within this human body as a hungry ghosts, animal and so on...

Are there any suttas that support the above view?

Samadhi and Jhana states are irreversible, one can slip back into ordinary lower states but when the path is retaken it brings one swiftly back to that position where they started off from. By not returning it means that one has cut the root of samasara, it may take a while for the fan to stop completely.

Sounds reasonable

opapātiko or spontaneously arisen is in 5th Jhana, maybe the first 4 also, 5th Jhana is now in immaterial source, no karma, nama and rupa, opapātiko is rising without cause, its a very difficult word to translate, it maybe the closest thing to Grace although spontaneous, accidental or grace does not quite explain opapātiko.

Unlikely to be 5th jhana because Gotama attained Buddhahood using the 4th jhana. This said, your ideas about opapātiko sound interesting.

Jhana is very much misunderstood. Jhana meditative absorption's arise spontaneously, they are not forced practices, they are fruit of ones preliminaries, sitting with noble beings, hearing true dharma, right concentration and attention and practicing in accordance with the dharma. These foundations facilitate cultivation of mind citta bhavana.

Is this referring to sutta teachings about concentration such as SN 48.10 and AN 11.2?

Hello again DooDoot

My question was about physicality in the arupa jhanas or higher abodes, lokas such as karma nama and rupa are physical. When the ties have been cut would the more subtle abodes be considered as physical, it was a question I am open to answers but as I see it kama loka is attachment to sense world, nama and rupa are qualities of the conditioned mind, this is the physical reality. If one has new abode of dwelling that is above kama and rupa sense and mind consciousness, in suddhāvāsā and the arupa Jhana stages are they considered physical, they are certainly more refined but are they still considered as subtle physical.

This is my basic understanding of Buddhist cosmology. I may not be so well versed in all the suttas, I read them about 25 years ago which was the translations of Bikkhu Bodhi, since then I do not consider his translations as perfect neither do I think that access to insight convey the correct translations, its ok but it needs improving so I usually check on later translations and contemporary new discoveries with translations and commentaries but above all meditation practice or allowing things to slowly digest. So I dont really depend on study and practice on all the literal known translations, im not opposed but its a work in progress. Not all of the tripitaka has been translated into English, we are still missing lots of suttas, so my experience would be to sometimes compare in a way of synthesis between the Dharma traditions to help fill in the misses spaces. Mostly I have learned through living oral traditions. As an example what I may have thought or understood a few years ago I might have a different view on that now, so I leave many things open, without getting to overly concerned. There are a lot of things in the suttas than cannot be translated or made literal, so I dont overburden myself with that to much, I guess it requires study and practice

"How does one become [a person] dwelling in the teachings (dharmaviharin)? One does not become [a person] dwelling in the teachings only through the practice of listening (erudition) and reflection (srutacintaprayoga) without having recourse to meditation (mental cultivation) (bbavanam anagamya). Neither does one become [a person] dwelling in the teachings only through the practice of meditation (mental cultivation) (bhavanaprayoga) without having recourse to listening (erudition) and reflection (srutacintam anagamya). It is by having recourse to both, by living according to both, that one becomes [a person] dwelling in the teachings. What consists of listening (erudition) (srutamaya) should be understood by means of study, recitation and predication (udgrahayasvadhyayadesana). What consists of mental cultivation (bhavanamayd) should be understood by means of the practice of concentration (samadhiprayoga) and dissatisfaction (asamtusti). The practice of concentration should be understood by means of constant and careful practice (satatyasatkrtyaprayoga) and unperverted practice (aviparitaprayoga). Dissatisfaction should be understood by means of practice aimed at an [as yet] untasted (anasvadita) higher tranquillity (uttarasamatha)."

(Abhidharmasamuccaya, p 188-189, tr Boin-Webb)


Again the point of view from Buddhist cosmology The bhavachakra in our human form we can experience any of the states in the wheel of samsara, hungry ghosts, animal realm, hell realms, duality of heat and cold feelings, pleasure and pain. Human realm is as I know based on control of the senses and mind and the practice and cultivation of sila, samadhi and panna, anything other than this is other loka, hungry ghosts and so on, i dont see them as being separate from the human condition but maybe not be classed as human if life is not aligned to the dharma.

You said

Regardless, why does the word "vāsā" necessarily mean another place in the universe? Often "vāsā" is used for mere states of mind

I fully agree on this, its about states within the human being or mind, Lokas are abodes or dwelling of consciousness or states of being, if this is understood then cosmology becomes much more interesting. Simple put we can be in heaven and hell and still be in the same body. When the buddha shared and taught the dharma to the devas he never left his physical body. I am hoping for more improvement in the translations and general understanding of cosmology. Buddhas teaching do not transcend the human condition or talk about anything abstract to what is within the human potential.

You said

Unlikely to be 5th jhana because Gotama attained Buddhahood using the 4th jhana. This said, your ideas about opapātiko sound interesting.

This for me is crucial part of understanding dharma. I agree that Gotama would only teach the 4 jhanas and what supports that, how can he possible teach non conceptual states, this was his confusion when he spoke to BrahmA samhApati, there is also an esoteric meaning in this suttas and nearly all of them that is not following linear timelines, the 5 ascetics were the 5 senses/aggregates , there are always double meanings in the suttas, the external and the internal or form and formless dharmas, when mind is refined the formless teachings nikaya dhammas become more apparent. The arupa Jhanas are immaterial states, we cant explain, we can only cultivate the 4 form jhanas and the rest of is spontaneously arising I would tend to think the 5th jhanas upwards leading to samyak sambodi is a direct route, we may get partial glimpses into non conceptual states. arupa jhanas are non conceptual, chitta gets retrained by higher universal laws rather then the limitations experienced through kama, rupa loka. In the 5th Jhanas or the first arupa jhana the dharma eye and ear will open, then one can see the unity beyond the diversity and the teachings will have new context.

With Metta

[justindesilva]

I am talking about break up of the kaya. since this is literally a discussion about my option of words now. this is right.

The word ""kaya" does not appear to necessarily mean the "physical body".

This post is appreciated as a unique enquiry and informative dialogue.
In the mean time may I point out that in Ana pana sathi bhavana the breath is shown as ' kaya' . IMO it is because breath ( vayo) is also form.