Is Dukkha a learned thing?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
SarathW
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Is Dukkha a learned thing?

Post by SarathW » Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:02 pm

Is Dukkha a learned thing?
I just wondered whether the Dukkha (suffering) is a learned thing from our parents, friends and the society.
Some parents and friends make us inadequate.
Even the advertising is geared towards to make us inadequate hence contributing to Dukkha.
What Buddha trying to do is to de-programme us.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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cappuccino
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Re: Is Dukkha a learned thing?

Post by cappuccino » Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:11 pm

existence is difficult, there is no escaping it, except by escaping it

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JamesTheGiant
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Re: Is Dukkha a learned thing?

Post by JamesTheGiant » Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:31 pm

SarathW wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:02 pm
Is Dukkha a learned thing?
No. Dukkha is one of the three characteristics of existence itself.
It's not learned, it is fundamental to the universe and how beings exist in it.

santa100
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Re: Is Dukkha a learned thing?

Post by santa100 » Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:51 am

SarathW wrote:What Buddha trying to do is to de-programme us.
That's a legit way to put it. It's like a computer that comes out of the assembly line, and the manufacturer already packaged greed, hatred, and ignorance as parts of the core operating system. While Dukkha is an inherent characteristic of conditioned phenomena, due to the built-in faulty functions of the OS, we humans most of the time do not see it as it is. One'd need to "de-program" that nasty program called the four-perversions (seeing impermanence as permanence, dukkha as pleasure, not-self as self, and un-attractive as attractive).

SarathW
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Re: Is Dukkha a learned thing?

Post by SarathW » Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:25 am

It's not learned
I think Santa cleared my point.
Why we can eliminate Dukkha by studding Dhamma is due to the fact that we can eliminate Dukkha by re-learning (unlearned or learned the right way).
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Lankamed
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Re: Is Dukkha a learned thing?

Post by Lankamed » Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:03 am

SarathW wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:25 am
It's not learned
I think Santa cleared my point.
Why we can eliminate Dukkha by studding Dhamma is due to the fact that we can eliminate Dukkha by re-learning (unlearned or learned the right way).
By studying means insight, right? If we could simply learn to eliminate dukkha by scholarly means there would be many enlightened folk.

SarathW
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Re: Is Dukkha a learned thing?

Post by SarathW » Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:24 am

By studying means insight, right?
No.
It is the beginning. I would say it comes under the category of Dhamma Vicaya in seven factors of enlightenment.

https://dhammawiki.com/index.php?title= ... ightenment
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

Saengnapha
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Re: Is Dukkha a learned thing?

Post by Saengnapha » Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:53 am

santa100 wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:51 am
SarathW wrote:What Buddha trying to do is to de-programme us.
That's a legit way to put it. It's like a computer that comes out of the assembly line, and the manufacturer already packaged greed, hatred, and ignorance as parts of the core operating system. While Dukkha is an inherent characteristic of conditioned phenomena, due to the built-in faulty functions of the OS, we humans most of the time do not see it as it is. One'd need to "de-program" that nasty program called the four-perversions (seeing impermanence as permanence, dukkha as pleasure, not-self as self, and un-attractive as attractive).
Faulty? How can the built-in functions of the OS be faulty? The child is not busy figuring this stuff out, it is busy trying to identify and adapt to his/her surroundings. Perhaps the mal-adaption to existence might be a better way of describing this. Claiming the organism is at fault is a sure way towards self-loathing at some point and may be a sign of poor mental health. Dukkha is also interpreted as unsatisfying.

Personally, I am under the impression that there is no inherent existence in phenomenon and in self. The nature of both, the nature of mind is already pure and without taint. Why continue the stress with de-programming and seeing things as perversions? Letting go of all conceptual ideas is the de-programming. Then you begin to see that there is not, and never was, a problem to solve.

SarathW
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Re: Is Dukkha a learned thing?

Post by SarathW » Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:06 am

The nature of both, the nature of mind is already pure and without taint.
According to Buddhist teaching even the mind is bright it is still with taints hence Dukkha.
If there is consciousness there is Dukkha.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

paul
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Re: Is Dukkha a learned thing?

Post by paul » Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:16 am

"In the centuries since the Buddha’s time, teachers who follow the canon have
adopted the vision of the path as purification, stressing the need to cleanse the
mind of its defilements if awakening is to occur. In the Thai Wilderness tradition,
for instance, teachers frequently describe Dhamma practice as an attempt to
outwit the defilements so as to end their obscuring influence in the mind. To
practice, they say, is to learn how little you can trust the mind’s urges and ideas
because they’re darkened with the defilement of delusion, whose darkness in
turn can allow greed, aversion, and all the other derived defilements to grow.
Only by questioning the mind’s urges and ideas can you free yourself from the
influence of these defilements, leaving the mind totally pure.

But many modern Western teachers—anticipating that their listeners would
react unfavorably to hearing their minds called defiled—have abandoned the
concept entirely. Even when discussing the problems of greed, aversion, and
delusion, they tend to avoid describing them as “defilements.” The closest they
come is calling them “poisons,” whose source they trace, not to the mind, but to
its external conditioning and its mistaken belief that these poisons are real.
Awakening, in this view, is a matter not of washing away defilement, but of
accepting the mind as it is, realizing that it’s already pure.

There are several reasons for why modern teachers are probably correct in
anticipating a negative reaction to the idea of the mind as defiled, the primary
reason coming from modern Western psychology. Many psychotherapists have
identified low self-esteem as a prime cause of mental suffering, and the ability to
silence the voice of the inner hypercritic as the prime way to end that suffering.
Because the notion of defilement is critical of such normal mind states as greed,
aversion, and delusion, they see it as unhealthy: a cause of suffering rather than a
tool to bring suffering to an end.

This view is sometimes bolstered by appeals to Western cultural history.
People coming to Buddhism are often reacting to the doctrine of original sin,
which tells them that the nature of their mind is basically depraved. Many—
unaware of the source—have adopted the standard Western counter-arguments
to this doctrine. One is the idea advanced by European Romantics and American
Transcendentalists that the urges in the mind are essentially divine in origin and
thus basically good. Another is the postmodern idea that any discourse of
defilement or depravity is a political attempt to gain power over others by telling
them that their minds are so defiled that they can’t trust themselves to think
straight, and so need outside help.

However, the most powerful support for the idea that there’s nothing wrong
with greed, aversion, and delusion comes from modern marketing. Advertising,
which has become our most pervasive source of cultural norms, trades almost
entirely on the notion that people should gratify their greed, aversion, and
delusion. So a great deal of money has been spent to turn people into consumers
who feel good about cultivating these tendencies. The result is that people are
accustomed to having these tendencies indulged, and so would resist hearing
that they are in any way defiled.

For these reasons, the resistance to the idea of mental defilement is so
pervasive that even when Western Buddhists encounter the Buddha’s most
emphatic statement on the need to understand the way in which the mind is
defiled, they interpret it to say that defilement is basically unreal." "On Denying Defilement", Thanissaro.

Saengnapha
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Re: Is Dukkha a learned thing?

Post by Saengnapha » Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:43 am

SarathW wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:06 am
The nature of both, the nature of mind is already pure and without taint.
According to Buddhist teaching even the mind is bright it is still with taints hence Dukkha.
If there is consciousness there is Dukkha.
The question of defilements or taints is resolved when you see that it is the conceptualizations (thought structure) themselves that are the taints. Seeing this allows you to see and experience the purity that is there as your nature. It is a quality of mind without taints and no attachments. It is empty of self, problem, and the dualities of good and bad, right and wrong.

SarathW
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Re: Is Dukkha a learned thing?

Post by SarathW » Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:46 am

Consciousness is arise due to causes and conditions.
Consciousness is arise due to defilements.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

Saengnapha
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Re: Is Dukkha a learned thing?

Post by Saengnapha » Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:48 am

paul wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:16 am
"In the centuries since the Buddha’s time, teachers who follow the canon have
adopted the vision of the path as purification, stressing the need to cleanse the
mind of its defilements if awakening is to occur. In the Thai Wilderness tradition,
for instance, teachers frequently describe Dhamma practice as an attempt to
outwit the defilements so as to end their obscuring influence in the mind. To
practice, they say, is to learn how little you can trust the mind’s urges and ideas
because they’re darkened with the defilement of delusion, whose darkness in
turn can allow greed, aversion, and all the other derived defilements to grow.
Only by questioning the mind’s urges and ideas can you free yourself from the
influence of these defilements, leaving the mind totally pure.

But many modern Western teachers—anticipating that their listeners would
react unfavorably to hearing their minds called defiled—have abandoned the
concept entirely. Even when discussing the problems of greed, aversion, and
delusion, they tend to avoid describing them as “defilements.” The closest they
come is calling them “poisons,” whose source they trace, not to the mind, but to
its external conditioning and its mistaken belief that these poisons are real.
Awakening, in this view, is a matter not of washing away defilement, but of
accepting the mind as it is, realizing that it’s already pure.

There are several reasons for why modern teachers are probably correct in
anticipating a negative reaction to the idea of the mind as defiled, the primary
reason coming from modern Western psychology. Many psychotherapists have
identified low self-esteem as a prime cause of mental suffering, and the ability to
silence the voice of the inner hypercritic as the prime way to end that suffering.
Because the notion of defilement is critical of such normal mind states as greed,
aversion, and delusion, they see it as unhealthy: a cause of suffering rather than a
tool to bring suffering to an end.

This view is sometimes bolstered by appeals to Western cultural history.
People coming to Buddhism are often reacting to the doctrine of original sin,
which tells them that the nature of their mind is basically depraved. Many—
unaware of the source—have adopted the standard Western counter-arguments
to this doctrine. One is the idea advanced by European Romantics and American
Transcendentalists that the urges in the mind are essentially divine in origin and
thus basically good. Another is the postmodern idea that any discourse of
defilement or depravity is a political attempt to gain power over others by telling
them that their minds are so defiled that they can’t trust themselves to think
straight, and so need outside help.

However, the most powerful support for the idea that there’s nothing wrong
with greed, aversion, and delusion comes from modern marketing. Advertising,
which has become our most pervasive source of cultural norms, trades almost
entirely on the notion that people should gratify their greed, aversion, and
delusion. So a great deal of money has been spent to turn people into consumers
who feel good about cultivating these tendencies. The result is that people are
accustomed to having these tendencies indulged, and so would resist hearing
that they are in any way defiled.

For these reasons, the resistance to the idea of mental defilement is so
pervasive that even when Western Buddhists encounter the Buddha’s most
emphatic statement on the need to understand the way in which the mind is
defiled, they interpret it to say that defilement is basically unreal." "On Denying Defilement", Thanissaro.
This is a total oversimplification and is itself a form of marketing for the writer. All views, including Thanissaro's are dismantled when you begin to see through the conceptualizations that fixate one's attention of various views about oneself and the world. Letting fixation go is the beginning. This is the dismantling of fear that religions have perpetuated forever.

Saengnapha
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Re: Is Dukkha a learned thing?

Post by Saengnapha » Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:49 am

SarathW wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:46 am
Consciousness is arise due to causes and conditions.
Consciousness is arise due to defilements.
Consciousness is another concept in your mind. Let these images go and you will see what the nature of mind is, not all this verbalization.

SarathW
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Re: Is Dukkha a learned thing?

Post by SarathW » Mon Jul 09, 2018 5:09 am

Consciousness is another concept in your mind.
What are the Pali words for consciousness and the mind?
Let these images go and you will see what the nature of mind is
Eye consciousness due to eye.
One image disappeared and another appeared.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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