Rebirth question

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
TRobinson465
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Re: Rebirth question

Post by TRobinson465 » Fri Jul 06, 2018 2:56 am

cappuccino wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 2:34 am
I just wouldn't want to be stuck
thats a good point, although it would just be temporary. Actually, does anyone here know which of the 31 realms of existence ghosts (not hungry ghosts), counts as?
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

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DooDoot
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Re: Rebirth question

Post by DooDoot » Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:44 am

TRobinson465 wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 2:56 am
thats a good point, although it would just be temporary. Actually, does anyone here know which of the 31 realms of existence ghosts (not hungry ghosts), counts as?
My impression is the 31 realms of existence relate to results of kamma.
TRobinson465 wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 6:39 am
From my understanding of the Buddhist concept of rebirth, no. you cannot exist at the same time as a previous incarnation. While the Buddha doesn't flat out refute this, im pretty sure there is no jataka tale, story, or sutta that indicates one can have two lifetimes exist simultaneously.
What about this? :shrug:
And what is kamma that is dark & bright with dark & bright result? There is the case where a certain person fabricates a bodily fabrication that is injurious & non-injurious ... a verbal fabrication that is injurious & non-injurious ... a mental fabrication that is injurious & non-injurious ... He rearises in an injurious & non-injurious world ... There he is touched by injurious & non-injurious contacts ... He experiences injurious & non-injurious feelings, pleasure mingled with pain, like those of human beings, some devas, and some beings in the lower realms. This is called kamma that is dark & bright with dark & bright result.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

TRobinson465
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Re: Rebirth question

Post by TRobinson465 » Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:58 am

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:44 am
TRobinson465 wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 2:56 am
thats a good point, although it would just be temporary. Actually, does anyone here know which of the 31 realms of existence ghosts (not hungry ghosts), counts as?
My impression is the 31 realms of existence relate to results of kamma.
TRobinson465 wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 6:39 am
From my understanding of the Buddhist concept of rebirth, no. you cannot exist at the same time as a previous incarnation. While the Buddha doesn't flat out refute this, im pretty sure there is no jataka tale, story, or sutta that indicates one can have two lifetimes exist simultaneously.
What about this? :shrug:
Yes I know that, I'm asking which realm a "ghost" would be classified under. its not a question that needs some deep philosophical answer to, just a simple classification question.

TRobinson465 wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 6:39 am
From my understanding of the Buddhist concept of rebirth, no. you cannot exist at the same time as a previous incarnation. While the Buddha doesn't flat out refute this, im pretty sure there is no jataka tale, story, or sutta that indicates one can have two lifetimes exist simultaneously.
What about this? :shrug:

And what is kamma that is dark & bright with dark & bright result? There is the case where a certain person fabricates a bodily fabrication that is injurious & non-injurious ... a verbal fabrication that is injurious & non-injurious ... a mental fabrication that is injurious & non-injurious ... He rearises in an injurious & non-injurious world ... There he is touched by injurious & non-injurious contacts ... He experiences injurious & non-injurious feelings, pleasure mingled with pain, like those of human beings, some devas, and some beings in the lower realms. This is called kamma that is dark & bright with dark & bright result.


I don't think that is referring to the same thing the OP asked. Multiple kammas are taking effect, but it strictly talking about rebirth, the OP is saying can you exist at the same time as a previous incarnation. ie. could prince vessantara and the Buddha exist at the same time?
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

chownah
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Re: Rebirth question

Post by chownah » Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:24 am

Concerning temporality and rebirth: The buddha referred to "past" lives.....doesn't this strongly point to linear temporality?
Also, the buddha sort of defined the past present and future in a sutta but I haven't been able to find it....I'm hoping that someone knows the one I mean and brings it here.
chownah

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DooDoot
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Re: Rebirth question

Post by DooDoot » Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:37 am

TRobinson465 wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:58 am
Yes I know that, I'm asking which realm a "ghost" would be classified under. its not a question that needs some deep philosophical answer to, just a simple classification question.
Sure. But the realms of rebirth are all about karma leading to those realms. Knowing the karma that leads to the ghost realm appears central to answering your question.

TRobinson465
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Re: Rebirth question

Post by TRobinson465 » Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:38 am

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:37 am
TRobinson465 wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:58 am
Yes I know that, I'm asking which realm a "ghost" would be classified under. its not a question that needs some deep philosophical answer to, just a simple classification question.
Sure. But the realms of rebirth are all about karma leading to those realms. Knowing the karma that leads to the ghost realm appears central to answering your question.
Good point. do you know the answer? If so please share, I'm curious.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

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DooDoot
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Re: Rebirth question

Post by DooDoot » Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:43 am

TRobinson465 wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:38 am
Good point. do you know the answer? If so please share, I'm curious.
Sorry. I can't help here. But if there are good ghosts and bad ghosts then a ghost sounds quite neutral in terms of kamma.


TRobinson465
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Re: Rebirth question

Post by TRobinson465 » Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:45 am

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:43 am
TRobinson465 wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:38 am
Good point. do you know the answer? If so please share, I'm curious.
Sorry. I can't help here. But if there are good ghosts and bad ghosts then a ghost sounds quite neutral in terms of kamma.

yes, same issue im having, bhumadevas spirits are certainly positive, while preta are clearly negative karma. Im curious as to what would be just a regular "ghost" and which of the realms it would be classified under.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

pegembara
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Re: Rebirth question

Post by pegembara » Fri Jul 06, 2018 5:29 am

LuisR wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 4:43 pm
If i die in Canada can I be reborn in another country or will i be reborn in Canada?
The Buddha's reply based on MN2-

"And what are the ideas fit for attention that he does not attend to? Whatever ideas such that, when he attends to them, the unarisen fermentation of sensuality does not arise in him, and the arisen fermentation of sensuality is abandoned; the unarisen fermentation of becoming does not arise in him, and arisen fermentation of becoming is abandoned; the unarisen fermentation of ignorance does not arise in him, and the arisen fermentation of ignorance is abandoned. These are the ideas fit for attention that he does not attend to. Through his attending to ideas unfit for attention and through his not attending to ideas fit for attention, both unarisen fermentations arise in him, and arisen fermentations increase.

"This is how he attends inappropriately: 'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what was I in the past? Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the future?' Or else he is inwardly perplexed about the immediate present: 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where is it bound?'

"As he attends inappropriately in this way, one of six kinds of view arises in him: The view I have a self arises in him as true & established, or the view I have no self... or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive self... or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive not-self... or the view It is precisely by means of not-self that I perceive self arises in him as true & established, or else he has a view like this: This very self of mine — the knower that is sensitive here & there to the ripening of good & bad actions — is the self of mine that is constant, everlasting, eternal, not subject to change, and will stay just as it is for eternity. This is called a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a writhing of views, a fetter of views. Bound by a fetter of views, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is not freed from birth, aging, & death, from sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. He is not freed, I tell you, from suffering & stress.

"The well-instructed disciple of the noble ones — who has regard for noble ones, is well-versed & disciplined in their Dhamma; who has regard for men of integrity, is well-versed & disciplined in their Dhamma — discerns what ideas are fit for attention and what ideas are unfit for attention. This being so, he does not attend to ideas unfit for attention and attends [instead] to ideas fit for attention.

"He attends appropriately, This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress. As he attends appropriately in this way, three fetters are abandoned in him: identity-view, doubt, and grasping at precepts & practices. These are called the fermentations to be abandoned by seeing.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
By whom has this being been created?
Where is the maker of the being?
Where has the being arisen?
Where does the being cease?

Why now do you assume 'a being'?
Mara, have you grasped a view?
This is a heap of sheer constructions:
Here no being is found.

Just as, with an assemblage of parts,
The word 'chariot' is used,
So, when the aggregates are present,
There's the convention 'a being.'

It's only suffering that comes to be,
Suffering that stands and falls away.
Nothing but suffering comes to be,
Nothing but suffering ceases.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .bodh.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

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DooDoot
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Re: Rebirth question

Post by DooDoot » Fri Jul 06, 2018 5:43 am

pegembara wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 5:29 am
"This is how he attends inappropriately: 'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what was I in the past? Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the future?' Or else he is inwardly perplexed about the immediate present: 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where is it bound?'
Is the following inappropriate attention? Why? Why not?
When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of recollecting my past lives. I recollected my manifold past lives, i.e., one birth, two... five, ten... fifty, a hundred, a thousand, a hundred thousand, many eons of cosmic contraction, many eons of cosmic expansion, many eons of cosmic contraction & expansion: 'There I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose there. There too I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose here.' Thus I remembered my manifold past lives in their modes & details.

MN 19

Laurens
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Re: Rebirth question

Post by Laurens » Fri Jul 06, 2018 5:47 am

I'm a bit perplexed by the posts about Canada and ghosts :lol:

Let's get back to topic. Are there any resources (I prefer video/audio format, as it is easier to fit in my day while doing other things) that describe the mechanics of rebirth, and perhaps address the kinds of questions that I raised in this topic.

I've always been a bit agnostic on rebirth, but my willingness to accept it's possibility has increased over time. At the moment I'm just interested to explore the thinking, logic, and ideas behind it.
"If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?"

Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

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Re: Rebirth question

Post by Dinsdale » Fri Jul 06, 2018 8:21 am

SarathW wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 8:24 am
The whole Kamma field exists in sort of an arrow of time.
What is called time is the change.
That's my understanding.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

pegembara
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Re: Rebirth question

Post by pegembara » Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:57 am

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 5:43 am
pegembara wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 5:29 am
"This is how he attends inappropriately: 'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what was I in the past? Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the future?' Or else he is inwardly perplexed about the immediate present: 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where is it bound?'
Is the following inappropriate attention? Why? Why not?
When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of recollecting my past lives. I recollected my manifold past lives, i.e., one birth, two... five, ten... fifty, a hundred, a thousand, a hundred thousand, many eons of cosmic contraction, many eons of cosmic expansion, many eons of cosmic contraction & expansion: 'There I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose there. There too I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose here.' Thus I remembered my manifold past lives in their modes & details.

MN 19
Did it lead to liberation? Yes or no?
“When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of the ending of effluents. I discerned, as it had come to be, that ‘This is stress… This is the origination of stress… This is the cessation of stress… This is the way leading to the cessation of stress… These are effluents… This is the origination of effluents… This is the cessation of effluents… This is the way leading to the cessation of effluents.’ My heart, thus knowing, thus seeing, was released from the effluent of sensuality, released from the effluent of becoming, released from the effluent of ignorance. With release, there was the knowledge, ‘Released.’ I discerned that ‘Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.’

“This was the third knowledge I attained in the third watch of the night. Ignorance was destroyed; knowledge arose; darkness was destroyed; light arose—as happens in one who is heedful, ardent, & resolute.

https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/MN/MN19.html
“And what is right view? Right view, I tell you, is of two sorts: There is right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions [of becoming]; there is right view that is noble, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path.

“And what is the right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions? ‘There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the next world. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously reborn beings; there are contemplatives & brahmans who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.’2 This is the right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions.

https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/MN/MN117.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

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DooDoot
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Re: Rebirth question

Post by DooDoot » Mon Jul 09, 2018 5:36 am

pegembara wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:57 am
Did it lead to liberation? Yes or no?
My mind still remains perplexed. How exactly did this recollection of pubbe nivāsa lead to liberation? Thanks :shrug:

pegembara
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Re: Rebirth question

Post by pegembara » Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:48 am

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 5:36 am
pegembara wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:57 am
Did it lead to liberation? Yes or no?
My mind still remains perplexed. How exactly did this recollection of pubbe nivāsa lead to liberation? Thanks :shrug:
Because it wasn't merely a recollection.

“This was the third knowledge I attained in the third watch of the night. Ignorance was destroyed; knowledge arose; darkness was destroyed; light arose—as happens in one who is heedful, ardent, & resolute."

What knowledge?

“When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of the ending of effluents. I discerned, as it had come to be, that ‘This is stress… This is the origination of stress… This is the cessation of stress… This is the way leading to the cessation of stress… These are effluents… This is the origination of effluents… This is the cessation of effluents… This is the way leading to the cessation of effluents.’

The same kind as described here-
"Bhikkhus, all is burning. And what is the all that is burning?

"The eye, ear, nose, tongue, body and mind is burning

Burning with what? Burning with the fire of lust, with the fire of hate, with the fire of delusion. I say it is burning with birth, aging and death, with sorrows, with lamentations, with pains, with griefs, with despairs.

"Bhikkhus, when a noble follower who has heard (the truth) sees thus, he finds estrangement in the eye, ear, nose, tongue, body and mind.

"When he finds estrangement, passion fades out. With the fading of passion, he is liberated. When liberated, there is knowledge that he is liberated. He understands: 'Birth is exhausted, the holy life has been lived out, what can be done is done, of this there is no more beyond.'"

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .nymo.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

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