You likely can’t eel wrig your way out of this one ... for instance and in particular ...Zom wrote: ↑Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:18 pmNo, these are different. First, you get the state. And you get knowledge after it, not at the same time. If final nibbana were something "discernible", then a new kind of consciousness would arise - born of "nibbana contact". And you also must get nibbana-contact and nibbana-feeling. But no such things ever mentioned in Canon. There is no "secret" 7th type of consiousness. More than that, it is impossible for impermanent consciousness to perceive something permanent. When you perceive something, this already means that the object itself is impermanent as well and it is because of that it can be perceived. As for Sariputta - read carefully what he says. In AN 9.34 he confirms that nibbana cannot be felt. Again, from where does feeling arise? From contact. Contact between what? Between mind and its object. But Sariputta dismisses the very possibility that there can be contact between mind and nibbana. Again, in AN 10.7 where he speaks about seeing nibbana, he means there retrospective knowledge and even Commy confirms this, admitting that in nirodha itself there is no perception, and thus, nothing can be known while the state is active. Mind ceases - how can you know that? Only retrospectively. No other ways. Buddha himself says in texts that highest possible meditative attainment with perception - is the sphere of nothingness. Even samsaric "neither perception nor non-perception" is considered by him as non-perceptive attainment, not to speak about total cessation of all perception, which is full and final nibbana.Knowledge of release is no different than release itself. Discernment of release; vision of release - these are all synonymous with release. Furthermore, knowledge cannot be non-percepient. Have you ever known your self to be unconscious? When you wake up, you may recall that you were unconscious for a while. However, have you ever recalled the details of any unconscious experience. It is impossible to know of unconsciousness. This “release” is both known and discerned through “vision”. Even Sariputta recalls being percipient of Nibbana!!! You can eel-wriggle around as much as you prefer - or you can change your view!
The time is present."Once, friend Ananda, when I was staying right here in Savatthi in the Blind Man's Grove, I reached concentration in such a way that I was neither percipient of earth with regard to earth... nor of the next world with regard to the next world, and yet I was still percipient."
"But what, friend Sariputta, were you percipient of at that time?"
"'The cessation of becoming — Unbinding — the cessation of becoming — Unbinding': One perception arose in me, friend Ananda, as another perception ceased. Just as in a blazing woodchip fire, one flame arises as another flame ceases, even so, 'The cessation of becoming — Unbinding — the cessation of becoming — Unbinding': One perception arose in me as another one ceased. I was percipient at that time of 'The cessation of becoming — Unbinding.'"