Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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cappuccino
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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

Post by cappuccino » Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:54 pm

“There is the Unborn, Uncreated, Unconditioned and
Unformed. If there were not, there would be no escape discerned
from that which is born, created, conditioned and formed. But,
since there is this Unborn, Uncreated, Unconditioned and
Unformed, escape is therefore discerned from that which is born,
created, conditioned and formed.”
~ Ud 8.3, Iti 43

rightviewftw
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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:02 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:50 pm
“There is that sphere where there is no earth, no water,
no fire nor wind; no sphere of infinity of space, of infinity of
consciousness, of nothingness or even of neither-perception-nornon-perception;
there, there is neither this world nor the other
world, neither moon nor sun; this sphere I call neither a coming
nor a going nor a staying still, neither a dying nor a reappearance;
it has no basis, no evolution and no support: this, just this,
is the end of dukkha.”
~ Ud 8.1
Yes but the Arahant does not go there, he is not reborn there nor does his consciousness or any conditioned phenomena go to this sphere/base/dimension/basis. This dimension/base/sphere/basis is not annihilated and can be referred to as Deathless in some contexts. This base is not populated by beings, neither those with or without form, it has no conditioned phenomena in it, this is a fundamental unconditioned element, a singleness.
“There might be, Ānanda. There are, Ānanda, these two elements: the conditioned element and the unconditioned element. When he knows and sees these two elements, a bhikkhu can be called skilled in the elements.”
If you think that the Arahant is reborn or is absorbed in this base, the former is Heresy and the latter is nonsense because dead people don't meditate. The Arahant is not reborn nor is there rebirth in the base you are referring too as is evident;
neither a dying nor a reappearance;
Last edited by rightviewftw on Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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cappuccino
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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

Post by cappuccino » Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:04 pm

my goal is escape from that which is born, created, conditioned and formed

since there is this Unborn, Uncreated, Unconditioned

escape is therefore discerned

rightviewftw
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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:11 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:04 pm
my goal is escape from that which is born, created, conditioned and formed

since there is this Unborn, Uncreated, Unconditioned

escape is therefore discerned
that is fine and well just don't expect to take anything conditioned with you to the unconditioned not even yourself.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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cappuccino
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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

Post by cappuccino » Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:15 pm

Where consciousness is signless, boundless, all-luminous
~ D 11.81-5

rightviewftw
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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:23 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:15 pm
Where consciousness is signless, boundless, all-luminous
~ D 11.81-5
vinnana aniassanam is not same as vinnana, the compounded version refers to post cessation of Name&Form;
"If one is asked, 'From what requisite condition does name-and-form come?' one should say, 'Name-and-form comes from consciousness as its requisite condition.'

"If one is asked, 'Is there a demonstrable requisite condition for consciousness?' one should answer, 'There is.'

"If one is asked, 'From what requisite condition does consciousness come?' one should say, 'Consciousness comes from name-and-form as its requisite condition.'

"Thus, Ananda, from name-and-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness.
So the verse you cited goes as follow;
Where do earth, water, fire and air no footing find?
Where are long and short, small and great, fair and foul -
Where are “name-and-form” brought to an end?'

“And the answer is:

'Vinnana Anidassanam
So obviously this is not a consciousness of a being given that Name&Form have ceased and consciousness of a being depends on Name&Form.

If you want to say that Vinnana Anidassanam is the consciousness of a being that is impossible because Vinnana is one of the Aggregates which constitute that which is called a being and aggregates depend on Name&Form, with the cessation of Name&Form there are no aggregates and thus no being.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:32 pm, edited 3 times in total.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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cappuccino
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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

Post by cappuccino » Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:25 pm

Consciousness which is non-manifestative, endless, lustrous on
all sides,

Here it is that earth and water, fire and wind, no footing find.
Here again are long and short, subtle and gross, pleasant and
unpleasant
Name and form, all cut off without exceptions.

rightviewftw
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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:31 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:25 pm
Consciousness which is non-manifestative, endless, lustrous on
all sides,

Here it is that earth and water, fire and wind, no footing find.
Here again are long and short, subtle and gross, pleasant and
unpleasant
Name and form, all cut off without exceptions.
this is not a matter of translations, Vinnana Anidassanam is not the Vinnana Khanda.
That which is a basis for existence is not the same as existence.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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cappuccino
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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

Post by cappuccino » Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:32 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:23 pm
If you want to say that Vinnana Anidassanam is the consciousness of a being that is impossible
both, neither

rather than either, or

rightviewftw
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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:35 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:32 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:23 pm
If you want to say that Vinnana Anidassanam is the consciousness of a being that is impossible
both, neither

rather than either, or
sorry friend i don't mind read so it is not clear what it is you mean.
Vinnana Khanda depends on Name&Form, depends on Contact, it is changing, inconstant
Vinnana Anidassanam does not depend on anything and is constant
Last edited by rightviewftw on Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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cappuccino
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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

Post by cappuccino » Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:37 pm

you think in terms of eternity or annihilation

no self?

not self is both eternity and annihilation

not self is neither

rightviewftw
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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:41 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:37 pm
you think in terms of eternity or annihilation

no self?

not self is both eternity and annihilation

not self is neither
This is too cryptic for me.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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cappuccino
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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

Post by cappuccino » Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:43 pm

Ananda Sutta: To Ananda
(On Self, No Self, and Not-self)

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

rightviewftw
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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:47 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:43 pm
Ananda Sutta: To Ananda
(On Self, No Self, and Not-self)

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
not clear what it is you are trying to say, it would be good if you write it.
The Blessed One said: "There is the case, monks, where an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person — who has no regard for noble ones, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma; who has no regard for men of integrity, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma — perceives earth as earth. Perceiving earth as earth, he conceives [things] about earth, he conceives [things] in earth, he conceives [things] coming out of earth, he conceives earth as 'mine,' he delights in earth. Why is that? Because he has not comprehended it, I tell you.

"He perceives water as water... fire as fire... wind as wind[1] ... beings as beings... gods as gods...Pajapati as Pajapati...Brahma as Brahma... the luminous gods as luminous gods... the gods of refulgent glory as gods of refulgent glory... the gods of abundant fruit as the gods of abundant fruit... the Conqueror as the Conqueror[2] ... the dimension of the infinitude of space as the dimension of the infinitude of space... the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness as the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness as the dimension of nothingness... the dimension of neither-perception-nor-non-perception as the dimension of neither-perception-nor-non-perception[3] ... the seen as the seen... the heard as the heard... the sensed as the sensed... the cognized as the cognized[4] ... singleness as singleness... multiplicity as multiplicity[5] ... the All as the All[6] ...

"He perceives Unbinding as Unbinding.[7] Perceiving Unbinding as Unbinding, he conceives things about Unbinding, he conceives things in Unbinding, he conceives things coming out of Unbinding, he conceives Unbinding as 'mine,' he delights in Unbinding. Why is that? Because he has not comprehended it, I tell you.
...
Last edited by rightviewftw on Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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cappuccino
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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

Post by cappuccino » Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:50 pm

not self is different than no self

no self would imply annihilation

not self would not change anything at all

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