Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

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Zom
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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

Post by Zom » Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:18 pm

Knowledge of release is no different than release itself. Discernment of release; vision of release - these are all synonymous with release. Furthermore, knowledge cannot be non-percepient. Have you ever known your self to be unconscious? When you wake up, you may recall that you were unconscious for a while. However, have you ever recalled the details of any unconscious experience. It is impossible to know of unconsciousness. This “release” is both known and discerned through “vision”. Even Sariputta recalls being percipient of Nibbana!!! You can eel-wriggle around as much as you prefer - or you can change your view!
No, these are different. First, you get the state. And you get knowledge after it, not at the same time. If final nibbana were something "discernible", then a new kind of consciousness would arise - born of "nibbana contact". And you also must get nibbana-contact and nibbana-feeling. But no such things ever mentioned in Canon. There is no "secret" 7th type of consiousness. More than that, it is impossible for impermanent consciousness to perceive something permanent. When you perceive something, this already means that the object itself is impermanent as well and it is because of that it can be perceived. As for Sariputta - read carefully what he says. In AN 9.34 he confirms that nibbana cannot be felt. Again, from where does feeling arise? From contact. Contact between what? Between mind and its object. But Sariputta dismisses the very possibility that there can be contact between mind and nibbana. Again, in AN 10.7 where he speaks about seeing nibbana, he means there retrospective knowledge and even Commy confirms this, admitting that in nirodha itself there is no perception, and thus, nothing can be known while the state is active. Mind ceases - how can you know that? Only retrospectively. No other ways. Buddha himself says in texts that highest possible meditative attainment with perception - is the sphere of nothingness. Even samsaric "neither perception nor non-perception" is considered by him as non-perceptive attainment, not to speak about total cessation of all perception, which is full and final nibbana.

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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

Post by cappuccino » Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:30 pm

Zom wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:18 pm
not to speak about total cessation of all perception, which is full and final nibbana.
please post from a sutta?

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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

Post by Zom » Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:34 pm

please post from a sutta?
Please re-read the thread, all suttas are there.

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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

Post by cappuccino » Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:35 pm

there is likely no sutta that describes Nirvana as a cessation of perception

since that would make Nirvana annihilation

however, cessation of perception is a (temporary) meditation

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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

Post by Zom » Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:45 pm

there is likely no sutta that describes Nirvana as a cessation of perception
Even worse (for you 8-) ) - as there are texts (especially in SN 35 and SN 22 chapters) which describe it as cessation of literally everything .)

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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

Post by cappuccino » Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:50 pm

well "cessation" is correct

yet look:

the Island,
the Refuge, the Beyond.
~ S 43.1-44

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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:00 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:30 pm
Zom wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:18 pm
not to speak about total cessation of all perception, which is full and final nibbana.
please post from a sutta?
There is no Sutta saying "Nibbana" is "cessation of perception & feeling" or that "The Unmade" is "cessation of perception & feeling" nor "The Unmade" is "Nibbana" because these terms carry a specific meaning and are not the same thing and are used in specific contexts.

IE cessation of perception and feeling is used to describe a meditative attainment, realization of the escape from the made and knowing the "Unmade" but these two "cessation of perception & feeling" and "unmade" are not the same things. Cessation is an event that occurs in the context of the conditioned phenomena whilst the Unmade is beyond the Conditioned, so even tho cessation of perception and feeling realizes the end [cuts off] of the Conditioned the cutting of and the unconditioned are not the same thing.

Furthermore the attainment of path can occur as a cessation of form, form derived from form along with the cessation of feeling, perception, intention, contact, & attention whilst the "cessation of perception & feeling" in a one by one jhana attainment refers to the surpassing of the "dimension of neither perception nor non-perception" which implies prior cessation of form and form derived from form.

In similar manner a dead person is dead, dead people are per definition not absorbed in supramundane absorbtion they are dead, so Parinibbana even tho it also realizes the end of form, intention, fabrication, perception & feeling it cannot be spoken of as a meditative attainment, therefore Parinibbana is not the same as cessation of perception & feeling nor the Unmade or Path attainment.

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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

Post by cappuccino » Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:07 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:00 pm
dead people are not absorbed in supramundane absorbtion
although they can be

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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:11 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:07 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:00 pm
dead people are not absorbed in supramundane absorbtion
although they can be
no the faculties of one who is dead are scattered and his life force and heat are exhausted, whilst the life-force and heat in one who is thus absorbed are not exhausted and his faculties are exceptionally clear.
"What is the difference between one who is dead, who has completed his time, and a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling?"

"In the case of the one who is dead, who has completed his time, his bodily fabrications have ceased & subsided, his verbal fabrications ... his mental fabrications have ceased & subsided, his vitality is exhausted, his heat subsided, & his faculties are scattered. But in the case of a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling, his bodily fabrications have ceased & subsided, his verbal fabrications ... his mental fabrications have ceased & subsided, his vitality is not exhausted, his heat has not subsided, & his faculties are exceptionally clear. This is the difference between one who is dead, who has completed his time, and a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling."
dead people don't meditate
Last edited by rightviewftw on Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

Post by cappuccino » Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:18 pm

The Thirty-one Planes of Existence
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dha ... /loka.html

rupa-loka
Cause of rebirth here: jhana
(Beings in these planes enjoy varying degrees of jhanic bliss.)

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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:40 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:18 pm
The Thirty-one Planes of Existence
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dha ... /loka.html

rupa-loka
Cause of rebirth here: jhana
(Beings in these planes enjoy varying degrees of jhanic bliss.)
The Arahant is not reborn in the Unmade nor is he absorbed in meditation. His consciousness is annihilated, his form is annihilated, all but [except] the Deathless is annihilated, the conditioned is annihilated. However even the Deathless loses it's meaning after the death of the Arahant as it is rightfully called Deathless in the context of the existence of the conditioned. That's how i understand the terminology anyway..

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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

Post by cappuccino » Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:46 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:40 pm
His consciousness is annihilated, his form is annihilated, all but [except] the Deathless is annihilated, the conditioned is annihilated. However even the Deathless loses it's meaning after the death of the Arahant as it is rightfully called Deathless in context of the existence of the conditioned.
this is sheer nonsense

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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:48 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:46 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:40 pm
His consciousness is annihilated, his form is annihilated, all but [except] the Deathless is annihilated, the conditioned is annihilated. However even the Deathless loses it's meaning after the death of the Arahant as it is rightfully called Deathless in context of the existence of the conditioned.
this is sheer nonsense
i am pretty sure some people will understand.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

Post by cappuccino » Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:50 pm

“There is that sphere where there is no earth, no water,
no fire nor wind; no sphere of infinity of space, of infinity of
consciousness, of nothingness or even of neither-perception-nornon-perception;
there, there is neither this world nor the other
world, neither moon nor sun; this sphere I call neither a coming
nor a going nor a staying still, neither a dying nor a reappearance;
it has no basis, no evolution and no support: this, just this,
is the end of dukkha.”
~ Ud 8.1


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