Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

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Pondera
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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

Post by Pondera » Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:01 am

“Condition” - “cause” - same thing. Gotta go. It’s been a slice :jumping:

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rightviewftw
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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:02 am

DooDoot wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:48 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:37 am
one could still reasonably infer the meaning from the Sutta Pitaka in the manner i demonstrated (even if you disagree).
This is impossible. Every principle in AN 10.58 is a wholesome principle, as literally stated below:
And how is discernment the surpassing state? There is the case where the Dhammas I have pointed out to my disciples are entirely for the right ending of suffering & stress. And however I have pointed out Dhammas for my disciples entirely for the right ending of suffering & stress, one has scrutinized them all with discernment.

"This is how discernment is the surpassing state.

"And how is release the heartwood? There is the case where the Dhammas I have pointed out to my disciples are entirely for the right ending of suffering & stress. And however I have pointed out Dhammas for my disciples entirely for the right ending of suffering & stress, one has touched them all through release.

"This is how release is the heartwood.

"And how is mindfulness the governing principle? The mindfulness that 'I will make complete any training with regard to good conduct that is not yet complete, or I will protect with discernment any training with regard to good conduct that is complete' is well established right within. The mindfulness that 'I will make complete any training with regard to the basics of the holy life that is not yet complete, or I will protect with discernment any training with regard to the basics of the holy life that is complete' is well established right within. The mindfulness that 'I will scrutinize with discernment any Dhamma that is not yet scrutinized, or I will protect with discernment any Dhamma that has been scrutinized' is well established right within. The mindfulness that 'I will touch through release any Dhamma that is not yet touched, or I will protect with discernment any Dhamma that has been touched' is well established right within.

"This is how mindfulness is the governing principle.

"'Monks, this holy life is lived with training as a reward, with discernment as its surpassing state, with release as its heartwood, and with mindfulness as its governing principle': Thus it was said. And in reference to this was it said."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
This was said by the Lord…

“Bhikkhus, live so as to realize the benefits of the training, the attainment of higher wisdom, the essence of release, and the control of mindfulness. Bhikkhus, if you live to realize the benefits of the training … one of two fruits is to be expected: final knowledge here and now or, there being some residual defilement, the state of non-returning.”

One who has completed the training,
Incapable of falling away,
Attained to the higher wisdom,
A seer of the end of birth—
That sage bears his final body,
And having left behind conceit,
He has gone beyond decay, I say.

Therefore ever delighting in meditation,
Concentrated, with ardent energy,
Seeing the end of birth, O bhikkhus,
Conquer Māra and his host,
And go beyond all birth and death.

https://legacy.suttacentral.net/en/iti46
How are these quotes relative? I repeat;
A possible state even if it is not yet attained is still true and an integral part of the mechanics of the system. Delusion and ignorance are inaccurate or incomplete states of information, this actually implies that accuracy of information is not relative and that information is in its essense completely accurate and non-deluded. Therefore if a state of complete accuracy of information was to be realized it would be destruction of delusion. In this manner delusion can be explained to have destruction of delusion as it's basis.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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DooDoot
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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

Post by DooDoot » Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:03 am

Pondera wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:00 am
“Suffering is the supporting cause of faith”. They are linked. End of mini-discussion. Gotta go. It’s been a real slice
No. When faith is complete, suffering ends. Therefore, suffering is not the "cause" ("hetu") of faith. In short, you appear to be imputing your own meaning upon Pali words.


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DooDoot
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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

Post by DooDoot » Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:07 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:02 am
How are these quotes relative?
How? They directly refer to the principles in AN 10.58 because these suttas exclusively use the same terminology. I have suggested before that the Buddha did not speak English. Please examine the Pali, namely, satādhipateyyā, paññuttarā, vimuttisārā, pari­yosānā, etc.

satādhipateyyā is only found in the texts below. Iti 46 and 4.245 explain the meaning of satādhipateyyā found in AN 10.58; AN 9.14 and AN 8.83 :geek:

https://legacy.suttacentral.net/search? ... teyy%C4%81

AN 9.14 : Samiddhisutta
bhante”ti. “Te pana, samiddhi, kiṃadhipateyyā”ti? “Satādhipateyyā, bhante”ti. “Te pana, samiddhi, kiṃuttarā”ti … samiddhi, kiṃadhipateyyā’ti, iti puṭṭho samāno ‘satādhipateyyā, bhante’ti vadesi. ‘Te pana, samiddhi, kiṃuttarā’ti

Root Text Iti 46 : Sikkhānisaṃsasutta
bhikkhave, viharatha paññuttarā vimuttisārā satādhipateyyā. Sikkhānisaṃsānaṃ, bhikkhave, viharataṃ paññuttarānaṃ … paññuttarānaṃ vimuttisārānaṃ satādhipateyyānaṃ dvinnaṃ phalānaṃ aññataraṃ phalaṃ pāṭikaṅkhaṃ—diṭṭheva dhamme

Root Text AN 8.83 : Mūlakasutta
sabbe dhammā, samādhippamukhā sabbe dhammā, satādhipateyyā sabbe dhammā, paññuttarā sabbe dhammā, vimuttisārā

Root Text AN 10.58 : Mūlakasutta
sabbe dhammā, samādhippamukhā sabbe dhammā, satādhipateyyā sabbe dhammā, paññuttarā sabbe dhammā, vimuttisārā

AN 4.245 : Sikkhānisaṃsasutta
brahmacariyaṃ vussati paññuttaraṃ vimuttisāraṃ satādhipateyyaṃ. Kathañca, bhikkhave, sikkhānisaṃsaṃ hoti? … bhikkhave, vimuttisāraṃ hoti. Kathañca, bhikkhave, satādhipateyyaṃ hoti? ‘Iti aparipūraṃ vā ābhisamācārikaṃ sikkhaṃ … sati sūpaṭṭhitā hoti. Evaṃ kho, bhikkhave, satādhipateyyaṃ hoti. ‘Sikkhānisaṃsamidaṃ, bhikkhave, brahmacariyaṃ
Last edited by DooDoot on Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:16 am, edited 2 times in total.

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rightviewftw
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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:10 am

DooDoot wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:07 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:02 am
How are these quotes relative?
How? They directly refer to the principles in AN 10.58 because these suttas exclusively use the same terminology. I have suggested before that the Buddha did not speak English. Please examine the Pali, namely, satādhipateyyā, paññuttarā, vimuttisārā, pari­yosānā, etc.

https://legacy.suttacentral.net/search? ... teyy%C4%81

AN 9.14 : Samiddhisutta
bhante”ti. “Te pana, samiddhi, kiṃadhipateyyā”ti? “Satādhipateyyā, bhante”ti. “Te pana, samiddhi, kiṃuttarā”ti … samiddhi, kiṃadhipateyyā’ti, iti puṭṭho samāno ‘satādhipateyyā, bhante’ti vadesi. ‘Te pana, samiddhi, kiṃuttarā’ti

Root TextIti 46 : Sikkhānisaṃsasutta
bhikkhave, viharatha paññuttarā vimuttisārā satādhipateyyā. Sikkhānisaṃsānaṃ, bhikkhave, viharataṃ paññuttarānaṃ … paññuttarānaṃ vimuttisārānaṃ satādhipateyyānaṃ dvinnaṃ phalānaṃ aññataraṃ phalaṃ pāṭikaṅkhaṃ—diṭṭheva dhamme

Root TextAN 8.83 : Mūlakasutta
sabbe dhammā, samādhippamukhā sabbe dhammā, satādhipateyyā sabbe dhammā, paññuttarā sabbe dhammā, vimuttisārā

Root TextAN 10.58 : Mūlakasutta
sabbe dhammā, samādhippamukhā sabbe dhammā, satādhipateyyā sabbe dhammā, paññuttarā sabbe dhammā, vimuttisārā
When you have something worth considering let me know and still: Delusion has destruction of delusion as it's basis, as i previously explained.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

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DooDoot
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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

Post by DooDoot » Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:12 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:10 am
Made states have unmade state as it's basis, delusion has destruction of delusion as it's basis, as i previously explained.
Yes, as you previously explained based on your own non-Buddhist non-Pali Brahman theory. :yingyang: :twothumbsup:

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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:13 am

DooDoot wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:12 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:10 am
Made states have unmade state as it's basis, delusion has destruction of delusion as it's basis, as i previously explained.
Yes, as you previously explained based on your own non-Buddhist non-Pali theory. :yingyang: :twothumbsup:
oh it is completely based on Buddhist theory, general semantics and logic actually. Unlike your theories which are entirely based on "seems", "may be" and "possibly" and are probably changing every other day... Mind you are never actually explaining the Dhamma, at best you are making interpretations of excerpts and segments... If you doubt it this is easy to test, i will just give you 5 sutta on the same subject and you won't be able to neither tie them together nor make sense of it.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

Post by DooDoot » Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:17 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:13 am
oh it is completely based on Buddhist theory..
Then please provide quotes from Pali to support your view. Thanks

:popcorn:
Ground of being | theology | Britannica.com
https://www.britannica.com/topic/ground-of-being
Christian views of God. …the impersonal concept of “the Ground of Being,” or “Being Itself,” pointed toward an understanding of the pre-personal depths of the transcendence of Godhood.

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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:26 am

DooDoot wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:17 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:13 am
oh it is completely based on Buddhist theory..
Then please provide quotes from Pali to support your view. Thanks

:popcorn:
This is not a view and i have provided enough as it is, even if you do not think so. Convincing you is not my goal as you dont seem to get it no matter how much i explain, as is evident from our interactions, like a spoon in soup imo. I have also attained certainty and definitely don't need your or anybody else's approval. If you asked and acted politely i would consider it but given the fact that you believe many Sutta to be fake i think no amount of Pali Sutta evidence will convince you. i think you are incurable basically and nether logical deduction nor Pali Sutta are ultimately an authority to you as you are guided by your own delusion.

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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

Post by DooDoot » Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:32 am

Nibbana is not the basis for the existence of greed, hatred & delusion. The Unconditioned cannot be a Condition for the Conditioned.
Just as if there were a roofed house or a roofed hall having windows on the north, the south, or the east. When the sun rises, and a ray has entered by way of the window, where does it land?"

"On the western wall, lord."

"And if there is no western wall, where does it land?"

"On the ground, lord."

"And if there is no ground, where does it land?"

"On the water, lord."

"And if there is no water, where does it land?"

"It does not land, lord."
:pig:
“Mendicants, it is said that no first point of ignorance is evident, before which there was no ignorance, and afterwards it came to be.

“Purimā, bhikkhave, koṭi na paññāyati avijjāya: ‘ito pubbe avijjā nāhosi, atha pacchā samabhavī’ti.

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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:45 am

DooDoot wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:32 am
Nibbana is not the basis for the existence of greed, hatred & delusion. The Unconditioned cannot be a Condition for the Conditioned.
Just as if there were a roofed house or a roofed hall having windows on the north, the south, or the east. When the sun rises, and a ray has entered by way of the window, where does it land?"

"On the western wall, lord."

"And if there is no western wall, where does it land?"

"On the ground, lord."

"And if there is no ground, where does it land?"

"On the water, lord."

"And if there is no water, where does it land?"

"It does not land, lord."
:pig:
The quote does not show that the Unconditioned cannot be a condition for Conditioned, it shows that surface is condition for landing and non-existence of surface is a condition for not-landing... It also shows that because there is a condition for landing, non-landing can be shown to be possible by removing conditions for landing.

Furthermore saying that Conditioned can exist without the Unconditioned is like saying that the notion of Up can exist without the notion of Down, or a positive without a negative as should be clear these exist only in context of eachother and are defined by being opposites. Postulating existence of a positive without forming a concept of the negative is depriving the word of it's meaning.
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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

Post by DooDoot » Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:50 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:45 am
Furthermore saying that Conditioned can exist without the Unconditioned is like saying that the notion of Up can exist withot the notion of Down, or a positive without a negative as should be clear these exist only in context of eachother and are defined by being opposites.
No. The Unconditioned is not one side of a duality. :roll:

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"This is the difference, this the distinction, this the distinguishing factor between the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones and the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person."


Gain/loss,
status/disgrace,
censure/praise,
pleasure/pain:
these conditions among human beings
are inconstant,
impermanent,
subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don't charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming
& rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
Knowing the dustless, sorrowless state,
he discerns rightly,
has gone, beyond becoming,
to the Further Shore.

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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:52 am

DooDoot wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:50 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:45 am
Furthermore saying that Conditioned can exist without the Unconditioned is like saying that the notion of Up can exist withot the notion of Down, or a positive without a negative as should be clear these exist only in context of eachother and are defined by being opposites.
No. The Unconditioned is not one side of a duality. :lol: :roll:
You seem to have some strange notion of what is a duality but i mean it in this context:
There is, monks, an unborn[1] — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated. If there were not that unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, there would not be the case that escape from the born — become — made — fabricated would be discerned. But precisely because there is an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, escape from the born — become — made — fabricated is discerned.[2]
Also yes, even if you don't think so: as it actually happens the Unmade is an integral part of the system in which The Made manifests, furthermore the Unmade is an escape and Freedom from made, if there was no Unmade the escape from the Made would not be discerned. It happens to be an integral part of the mechanics of the universe and beyond, even if you do not agree.

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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

Post by DooDoot » Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:59 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:52 am
There is, monks, an unborn[1] — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated. If there were not that unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, there would not be the case that escape from the born — become — made — fabricated would be discerned. But precisely because there is an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, escape from the born — become — made — fabricated is discerned.[2]
Not a duality.
Dwelling at Savatthi. "When a fool is obstructed by ignorance and conjoined with craving, this body thus results. Now there is both this body and external name-&-form. Here, in dependence on this duality, there is contact at the six senses. Touched by these, or one or another of them, the fool is sensitive to pleasure & pain.

SN 12.19

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