Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

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Pondera
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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

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DooDoot wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:38 am
Pondera wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:32 am
Are they linked or separate?
At Savatthī. “Bhikkhus, I will teach you the wrong way and the right way. Listen to that and attend closely, I will speak.”

“Yes, venerable sir,” those bhikkhus replied. The Blessed One said this:

“And what, bhikkhus, is the wrong way? With ignorance as condition, formations come to be; with formations as condition, consciousness…. Such is the origin of this whole mass of suffering. This, bhikkhus, is called the wrong way.

“And what, bhikkhus, is the right way? With the remainderless fading away and cessation of ignorance comes cessation of formations; with the cessation of formations, cessation of consciousness…. Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering. This, bhikkhus, is called the right way.”

https://suttacentral.net/sn12.3/en/bodhi
Clearly you’re evading the question. I’ve put you in check and you’re not playing fair. :computerproblem:

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DooDoot
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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

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Pondera wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:41 am
Clearly you’re evading the question. I’ve put you in check and you’re not playing fair.
If one arises due to ignorance and the other occurs due to the absence of ignorance, how are the same?
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Pondera
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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

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DooDoot wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:38 am
Pondera wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:32 am
Are they linked or separate?
At Savatthī. “Bhikkhus, I will teach you the wrong way and the right way. Listen to that and attend closely, I will speak.”

“Yes, venerable sir,” those bhikkhus replied. The Blessed One said this:

“And what, bhikkhus, is the wrong way? With ignorance as condition, formations come to be; with formations as condition, consciousness…. Such is the origin of this whole mass of suffering. This, bhikkhus, is called the wrong way.

“And what, bhikkhus, is the right way? With the remainderless fading away and cessation of ignorance comes cessation of formations; with the cessation of formations, cessation of consciousness…. Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering. This, bhikkhus, is called the right way.”

https://suttacentral.net/sn12.3/en/bodhi
Keep trying :jumping:

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Pondera
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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

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DooDoot wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:43 am
Pondera wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:41 am
Clearly you’re evading the question. I’ve put you in check and you’re not playing fair.
If one arises due to ignorance and the other occurs due to the absence of ignorance, how are the same?
I’m sorry. I can’t understand the question. It is grammatically funked up.

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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

Post by DooDoot »

rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:37 am
one could still reasonably infer the meaning from the Sutta Pitaka in the manner i demonstrated (even if you disagree).
This is impossible. Every principle in AN 10.58 is a wholesome principle, as literally stated below:
And how is discernment the surpassing state? There is the case where the Dhammas I have pointed out to my disciples are entirely for the right ending of suffering & stress. And however I have pointed out Dhammas for my disciples entirely for the right ending of suffering & stress, one has scrutinized them all with discernment.

"This is how discernment is the surpassing state.

"And how is release the heartwood? There is the case where the Dhammas I have pointed out to my disciples are entirely for the right ending of suffering & stress. And however I have pointed out Dhammas for my disciples entirely for the right ending of suffering & stress, one has touched them all through release.

"This is how release is the heartwood.

"And how is mindfulness the governing principle? The mindfulness that 'I will make complete any training with regard to good conduct that is not yet complete, or I will protect with discernment any training with regard to good conduct that is complete' is well established right within. The mindfulness that 'I will make complete any training with regard to the basics of the holy life that is not yet complete, or I will protect with discernment any training with regard to the basics of the holy life that is complete' is well established right within. The mindfulness that 'I will scrutinize with discernment any Dhamma that is not yet scrutinized, or I will protect with discernment any Dhamma that has been scrutinized' is well established right within. The mindfulness that 'I will touch through release any Dhamma that is not yet touched, or I will protect with discernment any Dhamma that has been touched' is well established right within.

"This is how mindfulness is the governing principle.

"'Monks, this holy life is lived with training as a reward, with discernment as its surpassing state, with release as its heartwood, and with mindfulness as its governing principle': Thus it was said. And in reference to this was it said."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
This was said by the Lord…

“Bhikkhus, live so as to realize the benefits of the training, the attainment of higher wisdom, the essence of release, and the control of mindfulness. Bhikkhus, if you live to realize the benefits of the training … one of two fruits is to be expected: final knowledge here and now or, there being some residual defilement, the state of non-returning.”

One who has completed the training,
Incapable of falling away,
Attained to the higher wisdom,
A seer of the end of birth—
That sage bears his final body,
And having left behind conceit,
He has gone beyond decay, I say.

Therefore ever delighting in meditation,
Concentrated, with ardent energy,
Seeing the end of birth, O bhikkhus,
Conquer Māra and his host,
And go beyond all birth and death.

https://legacy.suttacentral.net/en/iti46
Last edited by DooDoot on Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:51 am, edited 2 times in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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DooDoot
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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

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Pondera wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:48 am
I can’t understand the question.
This appears self-evident.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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Pondera
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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

Post by Pondera »

DooDoot wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:43 am
Pondera wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:41 am
Clearly you’re evading the question. I’ve put you in check and you’re not playing fair.
If one arises due to ignorance and the other occurs due to the absence of ignorance, how are the same?
Here ... I’ll just put you out if you’re misery and suffering. Upanisa sutta - if you care to read it.
"Thus, monks, ignorance is the supporting condition for kamma formations, kamma formations are the supporting condition for consciousness, consciousness is the supporting condition for mentality-materiality, mentality-materiality is the supporting condition for the sixfold sense base, the sixfold sense base is the supporting condition for contact, contact is the supporting condition for feeling, feeling is the supporting condition for craving, craving is the supporting condition for clinging, clinging is the supporting condition for existence, existence is the supporting condition for birth, birth is the supporting condition for suffering, suffering is the supporting condition for faith, faith is the supporting condition for joy, joy is the supporting condition for rapture, rapture is the supporting condition for tranquillity, tranquillity is the supporting condition for happiness, happiness is the supporting condition for concentration, concentration is the supporting condition for the knowledge and vision of things as they really are, the knowledge and vision of things as they really are is the supporting condition for disenchantment, disenchantment is the supporting condition for dispassion, dispassion is the supporting condition for emancipation, and emancipation is the supporting condition for the knowledge of the destruction (of the cankers).

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DooDoot
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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

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Pondera wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:51 am
Upanisa sutta
I know this sutta well. It doesn't say liberation is dependently originated.
Last edited by DooDoot on Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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Pondera
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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

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DooDoot wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:49 am
Pondera wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:48 am
I can’t understand the question.
This appears self-evident.
Because the sentence isn’t constructed using words! Do you want me to interpret your sentence fragments!!! Fix the grammar and I’ll give you an honest answer :computerproblem:

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Pondera
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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

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DooDoot wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:52 am
Pondera wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:51 am
Upanisa sutta
I know this sutta well.
So my original question ... are they linked or not?

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Pondera
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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

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DooDoot wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:52 am
Pondera wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:51 am
Upanisa sutta
I know this sutta well. It doesn't say liberation is dependently originated.
It doesn’t. Starting with “ignorance” as a cause, it lists each and every cause leading up to “knowledge of the destruction of the cankers”. Are you a blind mule? It’s exactly as rightviewftw says. You see something that contradicts your view and you spout out the opposite. It doesn’t prove you right to be absolutely wrong!!!

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DooDoot
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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

Post by DooDoot »

Pondera wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:53 am
So my original question ... are they linked or not?
There are not linked. Right view is linked to right concentration but wrong view (ignorance) is not linked to right concentration.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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Pondera
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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

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Gotta go. It’s been a slice. :thanks:

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DooDoot
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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

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Pondera wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:56 am
It doesn’t. Starting with “ignorance” as a cause..
No. The word "cause" ("hetu") is not mentioned in the sutta. :roll:
Pondera wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:57 am
Gotta go. It’s been a slice.
After being refuted on close to 100% of posts, I am sure I won't miss you. :hug:

SN 12.23 is not about "causes" ("hetu") resulting in "arising" ("samudhaya"). Liberation does not "arise" ("samudhaya").
Last edited by DooDoot on Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:01 am, edited 2 times in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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Pondera
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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

Post by Pondera »

“Suffering is the supporting cause of faith”. They are linked. End of mini-discussion. Gotta go. It’s been a real slice :woohoo:

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