he says annihilation view is closer, since it would lead to dispassion
you equate closer with exact sameness
he says annihilation view is closer, since it would lead to dispassion
Thanks for your answers mate. One thing i want to clarify if you dont mind;
Here's an alternative translation that avoids the assumption that nibbana is some sort of "think" or "place":
This said by the Blessed One, the Worthy One, was heard by me
in this way: "Monks, there is freedom from birth, freedom from
becoming, freedom from making, freedom from conditioning.
For, monks if there were not this freedom from birth, freedom from
becoming, freedom from making, freedom from conditioning,
then escape from that which is birth, becoming, making,
conditioning, would not be known here. But, monks, because there
is freedom from birth, freedom from becoming, freedom from
making, freedom from conditioning, therefore the escape from that
which is birth, becoming, making, conditioning is known."
...
viewtopic.php?t=13599#p202075
I asked some questions if you are not beyond being questioned btw.mikenz66 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:45 pmHere's an alternative translation that avoids the assumption that nibbana is some sort of "think" or "place":This said by the Blessed One, the Worthy One, was heard by me
in this way: "Monks, there is freedom from birth, freedom from
becoming, freedom from making, freedom from conditioning.
For, monks if there were not this freedom from birth, freedom from
becoming, freedom from making, freedom from conditioning,
then escape from that which is birth, becoming, making,
conditioning, would not be known here. But, monks, because there
is freedom from birth, freedom from becoming, freedom from
making, freedom from conditioning, therefore the escape from that
which is birth, becoming, making, conditioning is known."
...
viewtopic.php?t=13599#p202075
Mike
The usual English convention of adding "There" and "a" is what makes it sound like a "thing" or a "place":“Atthi, bhikkhave, ajātaṃ abhūtaṃ akataṃ asaṅkhataṃ. ...
exists/is-found, monks, not-born, not-brought-to-being, not-made, not-conditioned. ...
“There is, bhikkhus, a not-born, a not-brought-to-being, a not-made, a not-conditioned.
I think Zom answered them quite well. If I wanted to expand, I would mostly be simply quoting Ven Nananda's Nibbana Sermons: http://seeingthroughthenet.net/books/ who goes does a careful analysis of the suttas dealing with cessation, many of which I have quoted recently.
Etaṃ santaṃ etaṃ paṇītaṃ, yadidaṃ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho
sabbūpadhipaṭinissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṃ.
"This is peaceful, this is excellent, namely the stilling of all preparations, the
relinquishment of all assets, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation,
extinction".
So you also hold that;mikenz66 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:55 pmI think Zom answered them quite well. If I wanted to expand, I would mostly be simply quoting Ven Nananda's Nibbana Sermons: http://seeingthroughthenet.net/books/ who goes does a careful analysis of the suttas dealing with cessation, many of which I have quoted recently.
He begins each sermon with:Etaṃ santaṃ etaṃ paṇītaṃ, yadidaṃ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho
sabbūpadhipaṭinissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṃ.
"This is peaceful, this is excellent, namely the stilling of all preparations, the
relinquishment of all assets, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation,
extinction".
Mike
If we are to take that interpretation that "nibbana" is a field of reality beyond "mentality" and "materiality", one can still assume, that, yes, there is no experience, feelings, perceptions, cognition, etc (that is, all which is known to us at the moment), but, there is "something else entirely".
There are other translators who put it similarly as footing or basis but BB says that;"'All phenomena gain their footing in the deathless.
which does not make any sense to me and afaik he never explained it. Furthermore Nibbana and Deathless can be explained to hold same meaning;(9) They culminate in the deathless. (10) Their consummation is nibbāna.’
Saṃyutta Nikāya 45
Connected Discourses on the Path
7. A Certain Bhikkhu (2)
“Venerable sir, it is said, ‘the removal of lust, the removal of hatred, the removal of delusion.’ Of what now, venerable sir, is this the designation?”
“This, bhikkhu, is a designation for the element of Nibbāna: the removal of lust, the removal of hatred, the removal of delusion. The destruction of the taints is spoken of in that way.”
When this was said, that bhikkhu said to the Blessed One: “Venerable sir, it is said, ‘the Deathless, the Deathless.’ What now, venerable sir, is the Deathless? What is the path leading to the Deathless?”
“The destruction of lust, the destruction of hatred, the destruction of delusion: this is called the Deathless.
Lol... New Age Taoism
Mistranslations. Hasn't this been discussed before? The mistranslations of AN 10.58 by TB, BB, BB, BN, BS, PT, BA, etc, were laid to rest here. R.I.P.
If the destruction of lust, hatred & delusion were the Deathless; how could "all phenomena" (which would include the arising of lust, hatred & delusion) gain their footing in the Deathless?
The word "dhamma" above refers to path factors or skilful practises (rather than all phenomena); as written extensively in the suttas.
Pubbakotthaka Sutta: Eastern Gatehouse
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Sariputta: "Sariputta, do you take it on conviction that the faculty of conviction, when developed & pursued, gains a footing in the Deathless, has the Deathless as .
Sañña Sutta: Perceptions
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"Monks, these seven perceptions, when developed & pursued, are of great fruit, of great benefit. They gain a footing in the Deathless, have the Deathless as their ... the perception of the unattractive, the perception of death, the perception of loathsomeness in food, the perception of distaste for every world, the perception of inconstancy, the perception of stress in what is inconstant, the perception of not-self in what is stressful.
Maranassati Sutta: Mindfulness of Death (2)
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
There he addressed the monks, "Monks, mindfulness of death — when developed & pursued — is of great fruit & great benefit. It gains a footing in the Deathless, ...
Culavedalla Sutta: The Shorter Set of Questions-and-Answers
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
You can't keep holding on up to the limit of questions. For the holy life gains a footing in Unbinding, culminates in Unbinding, has Unbinding as its final end.
Nirvana is rest in peace.R.I.P.
incoherent jibberish as usual... emoticons, speculation, insults and questions. neither proof nor alternative explainations and at best vague references to circumstantial evidence which would never go beyond reasonable doubt. Even if you dont understand it phenomena still have Deathless as basis and reality is distilled down to the unconditioned.
So suttas are jibberish?
conviction (saddha)... persistence (viriya) ... mindfulness (sati) ... concentration (samadhi) ... discernment (panna), when developed & pursued, gains a footing in the Deathless, has the Deathless as its goal & consummation.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
No. Only noble path dhammas have a footage in the Deathless
Monks, these seven perceptions, when developed & pursued, are of great fruit, of great benefit. They gain a footing in the Deathless, have the Deathless as their final end. Which seven? The perception of the unattractive, the perception of death, the perception of loathsomeness in food, the perception of distaste for every world, the perception of inconstancy, the perception of unsatisfactoriness in what is inconstant, the perception of not-self in what is unsatisfactory.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"Monks, mindfulness of death — when developed & pursued — is of great fruit & great benefit. It gains a footing in the Deathless, has the Deathless as its final end. And how is mindfulness of death developed & pursued so that it is of great fruit & great benefit, gains a footing in the Deathless, and has the Deathless as its final end?
You’re not trying very hard AN 11.1 again says
If “retrospection” was a part of this “consummation of arahantship” it would have been listed right there in the steps.Dispassion has knowledge & vision of release as its purpose, knowledge & vision of release as its reward.
"In this way, Ananda, skillful virtues lead step-by-step to the consummation of arahantship."
i did not say that, i said your post is jibberish
You disagreeing does not make it wrong. So still even if you say no, phenomena do have Deathless as their basis.