Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

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cappuccino
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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

Post by cappuccino »

Zom wrote: Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:41 pmBuddha makes curtsey to annihilationist views elsewhere in the texts, with a remark, that they are still wrong views because of self-ideas coming along.
he says annihilation view is closer, since it would lead to dispassion

you equate closer with exact sameness
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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

Post by User1249x »

Zom wrote: Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:41 pm
Thanks for your answers mate. One thing i want to clarify if you dont mind;
Do you think the made could exist if there was no not-made?
Please give an analytical answee if you dont mind or just a y/n if u dont want to.
Idk what sutta you think i was referring to but i am curious
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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

Post by mikenz66 »

User1249x wrote: Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:23 pm
Zom wrote: Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:41 pm
Do you think the made could exist if there was no not-made?
Here's an alternative translation that avoids the assumption that nibbana is some sort of "think" or "place":
This said by the Blessed One, the Worthy One, was heard by me
in this way: "Monks, there is freedom from birth, freedom from
becoming, freedom from making, freedom from conditioning.
For, monks if there were not this freedom from birth, freedom from
becoming, freedom from making, freedom from conditioning,
then escape from that which is birth, becoming, making,
conditioning, would not be known here. But, monks, because there
is freedom from birth, freedom from becoming, freedom from
making, freedom from conditioning, therefore the escape from that
which is birth, becoming, making, conditioning is known."
...
viewtopic.php?t=13599#p202075
:heart:
Mike
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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

Post by User1249x »

mikenz66 wrote: Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:45 pm
User1249x wrote: Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:23 pm
Zom wrote: Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:41 pm
Do you think the made could exist if there was no not-made?
Here's an alternative translation that avoids the assumption that nibbana is some sort of "think" or "place":
This said by the Blessed One, the Worthy One, was heard by me
in this way: "Monks, there is freedom from birth, freedom from
becoming, freedom from making, freedom from conditioning.
For, monks if there were not this freedom from birth, freedom from
becoming, freedom from making, freedom from conditioning,
then escape from that which is birth, becoming, making,
conditioning, would not be known here. But, monks, because there
is freedom from birth, freedom from becoming, freedom from
making, freedom from conditioning, therefore the escape from that
which is birth, becoming, making, conditioning is known."
...
viewtopic.php?t=13599#p202075
:heart:
Mike
I asked some questions if you are not beyond being questioned btw.
As for the translation by tiltbillings who is unknown to me and frankly suspect, it does not matter, there are other references to the Unmade/Uncreated/Unconditioned
Dhp 97, Dhp 383 ie
Also if we do not translate it as Unmade but say "freedom from the made", the state of freedom is a state different from the state of made so the meaning is retained by implication.

As for asamuppannaṃ i think there is a very good case to be made for translating it as op of that thread suggested "beyond time" or "beyond duration" as some translators have pinned it.
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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

Post by mikenz66 »

Looking at the Pali the dictionary lookup on Sutta Central, and using Ireland's translation for the terms:
https://suttacentral.net/iti43
“Atthi, bhikkhave, ajātaṃ abhūtaṃ akataṃ asaṅkhataṃ. ...
exists/is-found, monks, not-born, not-brought-to-being, not-made, not-conditioned. ...
The usual English convention of adding "There" and "a" is what makes it sound like a "thing" or a "place":
“There is, bhikkhus, a not-born, a not-brought-to-being, a not-made, a not-conditioned.
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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

Post by mikenz66 »

User1249x wrote: Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:36 pm I asked some questions if you are not beyond being questioned btw.
I think Zom answered them quite well. If I wanted to expand, I would mostly be simply quoting Ven Nananda's Nibbana Sermons: http://seeingthroughthenet.net/books/ who goes does a careful analysis of the suttas dealing with cessation, many of which I have quoted recently.

He begins each sermon with:
Etaṃ santaṃ etaṃ paṇītaṃ, yadidaṃ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho
sabbūpadhipaṭinissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṃ
.
"This is peaceful, this is excellent, namely the stilling of all preparations, the
relinquishment of all assets, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation,
extinction".
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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

Post by User1249x »

mikenz66 wrote: Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:55 pm
User1249x wrote: Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:36 pm I asked some questions if you are not beyond being questioned btw.
I think Zom answered them quite well. If I wanted to expand, I would mostly be simply quoting Ven Nananda's Nibbana Sermons: http://seeingthroughthenet.net/books/ who goes does a careful analysis of the suttas dealing with cessation, many of which I have quoted recently.

He begins each sermon with:
Etaṃ santaṃ etaṃ paṇītaṃ, yadidaṃ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho
sabbūpadhipaṭinissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṃ
.
"This is peaceful, this is excellent, namely the stilling of all preparations, the
relinquishment of all assets, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation,
extinction".
:heart:
Mike
So you also hold that;
If we are to take that interpretation that "nibbana" is a field of reality beyond "mentality" and "materiality", one can still assume, that, yes, there is no experience, feelings, perceptions, cognition, etc (that is, all which is known to us at the moment), but, there is "something else entirely".
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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

Post by User1249x »

As for made not existing without the not-made;
AN 10.58 translated by Thanissaro 9th enumeration
"'All phenomena gain their footing in the deathless.
There are other translators who put it similarly as footing or basis but BB says that;
(9) They culminate in the deathless. (10) Their consummation is nibbāna.’
which does not make any sense to me and afaik he never explained it. Furthermore Nibbana and Deathless can be explained to hold same meaning;
Saṃyutta Nikāya 45

Connected Discourses on the Path
7. A Certain Bhikkhu (2)

“Venerable sir, it is said, ‘the removal of lust, the removal of hatred, the removal of delusion.’ Of what now, venerable sir, is this the designation?”

“This, bhikkhu, is a designation for the element of Nibbāna: the removal of lust, the removal of hatred, the removal of delusion. The destruction of the taints is spoken of in that way.”

When this was said, that bhikkhu said to the Blessed One: “Venerable sir, it is said, ‘the Deathless, the Deathless.’ What now, venerable sir, is the Deathless? What is the path leading to the Deathless?”

“The destruction of lust, the destruction of hatred, the destruction of delusion: this is called the Deathless.

Which makes the BB's translation even more strange for if A thing both consummates and culminates in X, why use different words for the X(Unbinding & Deathless). Furthermore this translation can be read to mean that Deathless is an exalted state of conditioned phenomena, which is obviously problematic and next thing you know non-meditators have some unusually bright state of mind and think themselves enlightened.

I think the Thanissaro translation makes perfect sense and only with Deathless as basis could that which is without a beginning and potentially endless be occuring. It also explains why the designation of various terms for the particular contexts.

Reality being not randomly structured can be explained to be like this;
Mundane states -> 1st Jhana -> 2nd Jhana -> 3rd Jhana -> 4th Jhana -> 1st Arupa jhana ->2nd Arupa jhana -> 3rd Arupa jhana -> 4th Arupa jhana -> cessation of perception & feeling. Or it can be explained as Conditioned -> Unconditioned. Or Arahantship -> Parinibbana.

Either way reality thus distills down to the Unmade state when the conditions for the grosser states are abandoned and the more refined realities are uncovered. In this way i would say that the made has the unmade as its basis, made can't exist without unmade and that unmade can exist without the made.
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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

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User1249x wrote: Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:20 pm In this way i would say that the made has the unmade as its basis, made can't exist without unmade and that unmade can exist without the made.
Lol... :D :yingyang: :twothumbsup: :roll: New Age Taoism :yingyang:
User1249x wrote: Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:20 pm
"'All phenomena gain their footing in the deathless.
(9) They culminate in the deathless. (10) Their consummation is nibbāna.’
Mistranslations. Hasn't this been discussed before? The mistranslations of AN 10.58 by TB, BB, BB, BN, BS, PT, BA, etc, were laid to rest here. R.I.P. :heart:
User1249x wrote: Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:20 pmThe destruction of lust, the destruction of hatred, the destruction of delusion: this is called the Deathless.
If the destruction of lust, hatred & delusion were the Deathless; how could "all phenomena" (which would include the arising of lust, hatred & delusion) gain their footing in the Deathless? :shrug: :roll:
User1249x wrote: Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:20 pm'All phenomena (sabbe dhamma) gain their footing in the deathless.
The word "dhamma" above refers to path factors or skilful practises (rather than all phenomena); as written extensively in the suttas.
Pubbakotthaka Sutta: Eastern Gatehouse
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Sariputta: "Sariputta, do you take it on conviction that the faculty of conviction, when developed & pursued, gains a footing in the Deathless, has the Deathless as .

Sañña Sutta: Perceptions
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"Monks, these seven perceptions, when developed & pursued, are of great fruit, of great benefit. They gain a footing in the Deathless, have the Deathless as their ... the perception of the unattractive, the perception of death, the perception of loathsomeness in food, the perception of distaste for every world, the perception of inconstancy, the perception of stress in what is inconstant, the perception of not-self in what is stressful.

Maranassati Sutta: Mindfulness of Death (2)
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
There he addressed the monks, "Monks, mindfulness of death — when developed & pursued — is of great fruit & great benefit. It gains a footing in the Deathless, ...

Culavedalla Sutta: The Shorter Set of Questions-and-Answers
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
You can't keep holding on up to the limit of questions. For the holy life gains a footing in Unbinding, culminates in Unbinding, has Unbinding as its final end.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

Post by cappuccino »

R.I.P.
Nirvana is rest in peace.

Not nothingness, nor annihilation.

A kind of oblivion, maybe.
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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

Post by cappuccino »

Do you exist? There is existence, not you.

There is Nirvana, not you.
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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

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DooDoot wrote: Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:30 am
incoherent jibberish as usual... emoticons, speculation, insults and questions. neither proof nor alternative explainations and at best vague references to circumstantial evidence which would never go beyond reasonable doubt. Even if you dont understand it phenomena still have Deathless as basis and reality is distilled down to the unconditioned.
Last edited by User1249x on Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

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User1249x wrote: Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:03 am incoherent jibberish as usual... at best vague references...
So suttas are jibberish?
conviction (saddha)... persistence (viriya) ... mindfulness (sati) ... concentration (samadhi) ... discernment (panna), when developed & pursued, gains a footing in the Deathless, has the Deathless as its goal & consummation.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
User1249x wrote: Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:03 amEven if you dont understand it phenomena still have Deathless as basis.
No. Only noble path dhammas have a footage in the Deathless
Monks, these seven perceptions, when developed & pursued, are of great fruit, of great benefit. They gain a footing in the Deathless, have the Deathless as their final end. Which seven? The perception of the unattractive, the perception of death, the perception of loathsomeness in food, the perception of distaste for every world, the perception of inconstancy, the perception of unsatisfactoriness in what is inconstant, the perception of not-self in what is unsatisfactory.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"Monks, mindfulness of death — when developed & pursued — is of great fruit & great benefit. It gains a footing in the Deathless, has the Deathless as its final end. And how is mindfulness of death developed & pursued so that it is of great fruit & great benefit, gains a footing in the Deathless, and has the Deathless as its final end?
Last edited by DooDoot on Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:20 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

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Zom wrote: Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:43 am
However, do you think knowledge and vision of release can be discerned without a mental faculty (of some sort). How do you explain away “knowledge” and “vision”. Here, the Buddha says in AN 11.1
Can be discerned retrospectively.
You’re not trying very hard ;) AN 11.1 again says
Dispassion has knowledge & vision of release as its purpose, knowledge & vision of release as its reward.

"In this way, Ananda, skillful virtues lead step-by-step to the consummation of arahantship."
If “retrospection” was a part of this “consummation of arahantship” it would have been listed right there in the steps.

Knowledge of release is no different than release itself. Discernment of release; vision of release - these are all synonymous with release. Furthermore, knowledge cannot be non-percepient. Have you ever known your self to be unconscious? When you wake up, you may recall that you were unconscious for a while. However, have you ever recalled the details of any unconscious experience. It is impossible to know of unconsciousness. This “release” is both known and discerned through “vision”. Even Sariputta recalls being percipient of Nibbana!!! You can eel-wriggle around as much as you prefer - or you can change your view! :sage:
Last edited by Pondera on Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

Post by User1249x »

DooDoot wrote: Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:14 am So suttas are jibberish?
i did not say that, i said your post is jibberish
DooDoot wrote: Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:14 am
User1249x wrote: Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:03 amEven if you dont understand it phenomena still have Deathless as basis.
No.
You disagreeing does not make it wrong. So still even if you say no, phenomena do have Deathless as their basis.

do you think that Unconditioned arises or occurs at parinibbana? No it does not arise, it is the underlying basis for existence since beginningless and when phenomena Unbind it is realized, the Unchanging, Undying.

This is as far as i will indulge your questions rude man.
Last edited by User1249x on Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:24 am, edited 2 times in total.
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