Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

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Pondera
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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

Post by Pondera » Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:25 am

Zom wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:18 pm
Knowledge of release is no different than release itself. Discernment of release; vision of release - these are all synonymous with release. Furthermore, knowledge cannot be non-percepient. Have you ever known your self to be unconscious? When you wake up, you may recall that you were unconscious for a while. However, have you ever recalled the details of any unconscious experience. It is impossible to know of unconsciousness. This “release” is both known and discerned through “vision”. Even Sariputta recalls being percipient of Nibbana!!! You can eel-wriggle around as much as you prefer - or you can change your view!
No, these are different. First, you get the state. And you get knowledge after it, not at the same time. If final nibbana were something "discernible", then a new kind of consciousness would arise - born of "nibbana contact". And you also must get nibbana-contact and nibbana-feeling. But no such things ever mentioned in Canon. There is no "secret" 7th type of consiousness. More than that, it is impossible for impermanent consciousness to perceive something permanent. When you perceive something, this already means that the object itself is impermanent as well and it is because of that it can be perceived. As for Sariputta - read carefully what he says. In AN 9.34 he confirms that nibbana cannot be felt. Again, from where does feeling arise? From contact. Contact between what? Between mind and its object. But Sariputta dismisses the very possibility that there can be contact between mind and nibbana. Again, in AN 10.7 where he speaks about seeing nibbana, he means there retrospective knowledge and even Commy confirms this, admitting that in nirodha itself there is no perception, and thus, nothing can be known while the state is active. Mind ceases - how can you know that? Only retrospectively. No other ways. Buddha himself says in texts that highest possible meditative attainment with perception - is the sphere of nothingness. Even samsaric "neither perception nor non-perception" is considered by him as non-perceptive attainment, not to speak about total cessation of all perception, which is full and final nibbana.
You likely can’t eel wrig your way out of this one ... for instance and in particular ...

Sāriputta sutta
"Once, friend Ananda, when I was staying right here in Savatthi in the Blind Man's Grove, I reached concentration in such a way that I was neither percipient of earth with regard to earth... nor of the next world with regard to the next world, and yet I was still percipient."

"But what, friend Sariputta, were you percipient of at that time?"

"'The cessation of becoming — Unbinding — the cessation of becoming — Unbinding': One perception arose in me, friend Ananda, as another perception ceased. Just as in a blazing woodchip fire, one flame arises as another flame ceases, even so, 'The cessation of becoming — Unbinding — the cessation of becoming — Unbinding': One perception arose in me as another one ceased. I was percipient at that time of 'The cessation of becoming — Unbinding.'"
The time is present.
Four simple meditations on earth, water, fire, and wind - leading to tranquility and pleasure, equanimity and peacehttps://drive.google.com/file/d/1G3qI6G ... sp=sharing

Dinsdale
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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

Post by Dinsdale » Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:17 am

cappuccino wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:50 pm
no self would imply annihilation
Could you elaborate on this? What exactly do you mean by "no self", and what exactly do you mean by "annihilation"?

Presumably if there is no self, then there is nothing there to be annihilated?

And how does this relate to cessation of feeling and perception?
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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

Post by Zom » Wed Jul 18, 2018 11:26 am

You likely can’t eel wrig your way out of this one ... for instance and in particular ...
It seems you just still can't grasp the meaning of what I say.
But I'll try again.

It depends on how you read the passage. Perhaps you consider here two types of perception, where "cessasion of being" is one, and "nibbana" is another. But this is not the case. Here, more accurate translation:

One perception arose in me and another perception ceased: ‘[[1]]The cessation of continued existence is extinguishment. [[2]]The cessation of continued existence is extinguishment.’

So one "cessation = nibbana" is one perception, and another one is also "cessation = nibbana".

How to understand that? You enter nirodha-samapatti. Perception [case N1] ceases. After that, when you quit nirodha-samapatti, perception will appear again [case N2], so you may know for yourself that you had no perception, that it had ceased (along with all other mental factors). This is why this passage mentions ceasing. No need to speak about it if this is not important or if it doesn't take place. If you perceive some "objective nibbana" with some "nibbanic perception" (which should also produce nibbanic contact and nibbanic feeling, which is a 'heresy', as I've said already) - you don't need to speak about cessation of perception. You just say: "I perceive nibbana". But Ven. Sariputta doesn't say this. He says that perception ceased, and then appeared again.

And Commy confirms this explanation:

Bhavanirodho nibbānaṃ bhavanirodhaṃ nibbānaṃ. Mp paraphrases
thus: “‘On that occasion, friend, I was percipient with
the perception of fruition attainment.’ Reviewing knowledge
(paccavekkhaṇā) is discussed to show that this attainment was
accompanied by mind.” In other words, because perception was
present, this was not “the cessation of perception and feeling”
(saññāvedayitanirodha).

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cappuccino
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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

Post by cappuccino » Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:33 pm

Dinsdale wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:17 am
Presumably if there is no self, then there is nothing there to be annihilated?

Rather, if nothing is self, there is nothing to annihilate.

For that reason, you cannot die.

auto
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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

Post by auto » Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:07 pm

rupa jhana is pleasure from flesh=form endowed with five strings of sensuality

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"And what is rapture of the flesh? There are these five strings of sensuality. Which five? Forms cognizable via the eye — agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing. Sounds cognizable via the ear... Aromas cognizable via the nose... Flavors cognizable via the tongue... Tactile sensations cognizable via the body — agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing. Now whatever rapture arises in dependence on these five strands of sensuality, that is called rapture of the flesh.
"And what is liberation of the flesh? Liberation associated with form is of the flesh.
pleasure not of the flesh is formless:
"And what is pleasure not of the flesh? There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensual pleasures, withdrawn from unskillful qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. With the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' This is called pleasure not of the flesh.
What is liberation not of the flesh? Liberation associated with the formless is not of the flesh.

also, if to look how the jhana from withdrawal progresses it matches how cessation of perception comes about.

at 3rd jhana rapture fades and you remain equanimous, alert, senses pleasure with the body. So how to get 4th jhana:
"And what is the pleasure more not-of-the-flesh than that not of the flesh? Whatever pleasure arises in a fermentation-ended monk as he is reflecting on his mind released from passion, reflecting on his mind released from aversion, reflecting on his mind released from delusion, that is called pleasure more not-of-the-flesh than that not of the flesh.
not-of-the-flesh that is a .. as 'neither to think and will' maybe it is the raft what gets you to cessation.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"Now, when the monk is percipient of himself here, then from there to there, step by step, he touches the peak of perception. As he remains at the peak of perception, the thought occurs to him, 'Thinking is bad for me. Not thinking is better for me. If I were to think and will, this perception of mine would cease, and a grosser perception would appear. What if I were neither to think nor to will?' [3] So he neither thinks nor wills, and as he is neither thinking nor willing, that perception ceases [4] and another, grosser perception does not appear. He touches cessation. This, Potthapada, is how there is the alert [5] step-by step attainment of the ultimate cessation of perception.

tho, 4th jhana or 8 th jhana and cessation are not the same, missed that point. Then it means there is a 9th state(i think there isn't actually bc its cessation[not sure]) and the "neither to think and will" is just moments before cessation comes.

And what is equanimity of the flesh? There are these five strings of sensuality. Which five? Forms cognizable via the eye — agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing. Sounds cognizable via the ear... Aromas cognizable via the nose... Flavors cognizable via the tongue... Tactile sensations cognizable via the body — agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing. Whatever equanimity arises in dependence on these five strands of sensuality, that is called equanimity of the flesh.
"And what is equanimity not of the flesh? There is the case where a monk, with the abandoning of pleasure & stress — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither-pleasure-nor-pain. This is called equanimity not of the flesh.
well
"And what is the liberation more not-of-the-flesh than that not of the flesh? Whatever liberation arises in a fermentation-ended monk as he is reflecting on his mind released from passion, reflecting on his mind released from aversion, reflecting on his mind released from delusion, that is called liberation more not-of-the-flesh than that not of the flesh."

3 types of jhana?

auto
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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

Post by auto » Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:40 pm

Sutta evidence that there is 3 types of jhana. Rupa, arupa and a fermentation ended jhana by reflecting.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

Post by mikenz66 » Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:50 pm

auto wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:07 pm
rupa jhana is pleasure from flesh=form endowed with five strings of sensuality
This seems to be contradicted by the sutta you quote from, including your quotes.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Perhaps I'm missing something in your logic...
And what is spiritual rapture? It’s when a mendicant, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected. As the placing of the mind and keeping it connected are stilled, they enter and remain in the second absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of immersion, with internal clarity and confidence, and unified mind, without placing the mind and keeping it connected. This is called spiritual rapture.

https://suttacentral.net/sn36.31/en/sujato#sc2
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Mike

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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

Post by auto » Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:31 pm

mikenz66 wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:50 pm
auto wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:07 pm
rupa jhana is pleasure from flesh=form endowed with five strings of sensuality
This seems to be contradicted by the sutta you quote from, including your quotes.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Perhaps I'm missing something in your logic...
And what is spiritual rapture? It’s when a mendicant, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected. As the placing of the mind and keeping it connected are stilled, they enter and remain in the second absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of immersion, with internal clarity and confidence, and unified mind, without placing the mind and keeping it connected. This is called spiritual rapture.

https://suttacentral.net/sn36.31/en/sujato#sc2
:heart:
Mike
In your quote is spiritual rapture. Is spiritual formless or is it form?


rupa, flesh, endowed with sensuality.

https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn ... .than.html

"Then, Bāhiya, you should train yourself thus: In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized. That is how you should train yourself. When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Bāhiya, there is no you in connection with that. When there is no you in connection with that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of stress."[2]


compare it with

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"And what is rapture of the flesh? There are these five strings of sensuality. Which five? Forms cognizable via the eye — agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing. Sounds cognizable via the ear... Aromas cognizable via the nose... Flavors cognizable via the tongue... Tactile sensations cognizable via the body — agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing. Now whatever rapture arises in dependence on these five strands of sensuality, that is called rapture of the flesh.
it is interesting that in Bahiya sutta jhana is regards to self, 4th is you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two.

second jhana
"And what is pleasure of the flesh? There are these five strings of sensuality. Which five? Forms cognizable via the eye — agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing. Sounds cognizable via the ear... Aromas cognizable via the nose... Flavors cognizable via the tongue... Tactile sensations cognizable via the body — agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing. Now whatever pleasure arises in dependence on these five strands of sensuality, that is called pleasure of the flesh.
third jhana.
"And what is the pleasure more not-of-the-flesh than that not of the flesh? Whatever pleasure arises in a fermentation-ended monk as he is reflecting on his mind released from passion, reflecting on his mind released from aversion, reflecting on his mind released from delusion, that is called pleasure more not-of-the-flesh than that not of the flesh.
(i think i messed up here, but there at the end of the sutta is a redeeming part)

4th jhana, both 3rd and 4th jhana are about 'reflecting on his mind' what would hint why there is no returning because no sensuality endowment needed, no form needed, reflecting in mind is enough.
"And what is the equanimity more not-of-the-flesh than that not of the flesh? Whatever equanimity arises in a fermentation-ended monk as he is reflecting on his mind released from passion, reflecting on his mind released from aversion, reflecting on his mind released from delusion, that is called equanimity more not-of-the-flesh than that not of the flesh.
i should go to sleep.

that is 4th jhana of the flesh.
"And what is equanimity of the flesh? There are these five strings of sensuality. Which five? Forms cognizable via the eye — agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing. Sounds cognizable via the ear... Aromas cognizable via the nose... Flavors cognizable via the tongue... Tactile sensations cognizable via the body — agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing. Whatever equanimity arises in dependence on these five strands of sensuality, that is called equanimity of the flesh.
So still there seem to be 3 types of jhana.

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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

Post by auto » Thu Jul 19, 2018 9:27 pm

ok now i actually get it,

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"Monks, there is rapture of the flesh, rapture not of the flesh, and rapture more not-of-the-flesh than that not of the flesh. There is pleasure of the flesh, pleasure not of the flesh, and pleasure more not-of-the-flesh than that not of the flesh. There is equanimity of the flesh, equanimity not of the flesh, and equanimity more not-of-the-flesh than that not of the flesh. There is liberation of the flesh, liberation not of the flesh, and liberation more not-of-the-flesh than that not of the flesh.
the 3rd jhana is equanimity, 4th is liberation

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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

Post by mikenz66 » Thu Jul 19, 2018 10:20 pm

I think it's very clear that jhana is a pleasure not-of-the-flesh.

The sutta you quoted:
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN36_31.html
“And what is rapture not of the flesh? There is the case where a monk—quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities—enters & remains in the first jhāna: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters & remains in the second jhāna: rapture & pleasure born of concentration, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation—internal assurance. This is called rapture not of the flesh.
I quoted the same passage above, with a different translation:
And what is spiritual rapture?
Katamā ca, bhikkhave, nirāmisā pīti?

It’s when a mendicant, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected.
Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkaṃ savicāraṃ vivekajaṃ pītisukhaṃ paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati.
...
https://suttacentral.net/sn36.31/en/sujato#2.1
Clearly, jhāna is nirāmisā pīti.

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Mike

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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

Post by auto » Thu Jul 19, 2018 11:18 pm

mikenz66 wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 10:20 pm
I think it's very clear that jhana is a pleasure not-of-the-flesh.

The sutta you quoted:
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN36_31.html
“And what is rapture not of the flesh? There is the case where a monk—quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities—enters & remains in the first jhāna: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters & remains in the second jhāna: rapture & pleasure born of concentration, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation—internal assurance. This is called rapture not of the flesh.
I quoted the same passage above, with a different translation:
And what is spiritual rapture?
Katamā ca, bhikkhave, nirāmisā pīti?

It’s when a mendicant, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected.
Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkaṃ savicāraṃ vivekajaṃ pītisukhaṃ paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati.
...
https://suttacentral.net/sn36.31/en/sujato#2.1
Clearly, jhāna is nirāmisā pīti.

:heart:
Mike
I agree with that you said about not of the flesh jhana
but,
The sutta central passage what i think is rupa jhana

Sutta central translation
And what is carnal rapture? There are these five kinds of sensual stimulation. What five? Sights known by the eye that are likable, desirable, agreeable, pleasant, sensual, and arousing. Sounds … Smells … Tastes … Touches known by the body that are likable, desirable, agreeable, pleasant, sensual, and arousing. These are the five kinds of sensual stimulation. The rapture that arises from these five kinds of sensual stimulation is called carnal rapture.
accestoinsight version
"And what is rapture of the flesh? There are these five strings of sensuality. Which five? Forms cognizable via the eye — agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing. Sounds cognizable via the ear... Aromas cognizable via the nose... Flavors cognizable via the tongue... Tactile sensations cognizable via the body — agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing. Now whatever rapture arises in dependence on these five strands of sensuality, that is called rapture of the flesh.

SC
And what is carnal liberation? Liberation connected with form is carnal.
AtI
"And what is liberation of the flesh? Liberation associated with form is of the flesh.
from that i got rupa=carnal.
And what is spiritual liberation? Liberation connected with the formless is spiritual.
formless=spiritual

But looking at the descriptions then spiritual jhana is typical 1-4 jhana. And it seem the description of carnal jhana is like dependent origination.

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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

Post by mikenz66 » Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:37 am

auto wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 11:18 pm
I agree with that you said about not of the flesh jhana
but,
The sutta central passage what i think is rupa jhana
Yes, it is referred to as rupa jhana (though I'm not sure that term exists in the suttas, it may be a later development), but rupa (form) is not the same as sāmisā (of the flesh). So rupa jhana is
nirāmisā pīti (spiritual/not-of-the-flesh rapture), as it says in the sutta: https://suttacentral.net/sn36.31/en/sujato#2.1

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Mike

auto
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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

Post by auto » Fri Jul 20, 2018 11:19 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:37 am
auto wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 11:18 pm
I agree with that you said about not of the flesh jhana
but,
The sutta central passage what i think is rupa jhana
Yes, it is referred to as rupa jhana (though I'm not sure that term exists in the suttas, it may be a later development), but rupa (form) is not the same as sāmisā (of the flesh). So rupa jhana is
nirāmisā pīti (spiritual/not-of-the-flesh rapture), as it says in the sutta: https://suttacentral.net/sn36.31/en/sujato#2.1

:heart:
Mike
Yes,

https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN35_117.html
“Therefore, monks, that dimension should be experienced2 where the eye [vision] ceases and the perception [mental label] of form fades. That dimension should be experienced where the ear ceases and the perception of sound fades. That dimension should be experienced where the nose ceases and the perception of aroma fades. That dimension should be experienced where the tongue ceases and the perception of flavor fades. That dimension should be experienced where the body ceases and the perception of tactile sensation fades. That dimension should be experienced where the intellect ceases and the perception of idea fades. That dimension should be experienced.”
Ananda's explanation,
Ven. Ānanda said this: “Friends, concerning the brief statement the Blessed One made, after which he went into his dwelling without analyzing the detailed meaning—i.e., ‘Therefore, monks, that dimension should be experienced where the eye ceases and the perception of form fades. That dimension should be experienced where the ear ceases and the perception of sound fades… where the nose ceases and the perception of aroma fades… where the tongue ceases and the perception of flavor fades… where the body ceases and the perception of tactile sensation fades… where the intellect ceases and the perception of idea fades. That dimension should be experienced’—I understand the detailed meaning to be this: This was stated by the Blessed One with regard to the cessation of the six sense media.”3
cessation of the six sense media have to be experienced.
“Monks, before my awakening, when I was still just an unawakened bodhisatta, the thought occurred to me: ‘Those five strings of sensuality that previously made contact with my awareness—that are past, ceased, changed: My mind, having often gone there, might go to those that are present, or occasionally to those that are future.’1 Then the thought occurred to me: ‘Those five strings of sensuality that previously made contact with my awareness—that are past, ceased, changed: There, for my own sake, heedfulness, mindfulness, and a protection of my awareness should be practiced.
perception here is mental label and vision is eye's feeling therefore I think that dimension regards to cessation of the six sense media is 'cessation of perception and feeling'.

And then you will go for spiritual jhana, 1-4.

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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

Post by Pondera » Sat Jul 21, 2018 5:13 am

Zom wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 11:26 am
You likely can’t eel wrig your way out of this one ... for instance and in particular ...
It seems you just still can't grasp the meaning of what I say.
But I'll try again.

It depends on how you read the passage. Perhaps you consider here two types of perception, where "cessasion of being" is one, and "nibbana" is another. But this is not the case. Here, more accurate translation:

One perception arose in me and another perception ceased: ‘[[1]]The cessation of continued existence is extinguishment. [[2]]The cessation of continued existence is extinguishment.’

So one "cessation = nibbana" is one perception, and another one is also "cessation = nibbana".

How to understand that? You enter nirodha-samapatti. Perception [case N1] ceases. After that, when you quit nirodha-samapatti, perception will appear again [case N2], so you may know for yourself that you had no perception, that it had ceased (along with all other mental factors). This is why this passage mentions ceasing. No need to speak about it if this is not important or if it doesn't take place. If you perceive some "objective nibbana" with some "nibbanic perception" (which should also produce nibbanic contact and nibbanic feeling, which is a 'heresy', as I've said already) - you don't need to speak about cessation of perception. You just say: "I perceive nibbana". But Ven. Sariputta doesn't say this. He says that perception ceased, and then appeared again.

And Commy confirms this explanation:

Bhavanirodho nibbānaṃ bhavanirodhaṃ nibbānaṃ. Mp paraphrases
thus: “‘On that occasion, friend, I was percipient with
the perception of fruition attainment.’ Reviewing knowledge
(paccavekkhaṇā) is discussed to show that this attainment was
accompanied by mind.” In other words, because perception was
present, this was not “the cessation of perception and feeling”
(saññāvedayitanirodha).
I get what you’re saying. I see the distinction in the sutta. But it appears to me that you are not teaching light. You are teaching darkness. You are diving into the “unknown” - the “unknowable”. The Buddha taught otherwise.
My heart, thus knowing, thus seeing, was released from the effluent of sensuality, released from the effluent of becoming, released from the effluent of ignorance. With release, there was the knowledge, ‘Released.’ I discerned that ‘Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.’
“This was the third knowledge I attained in the third watch of the night. Ignorance was destroyed; knowledge arose; darkness was destroyed; light arose—as happens in one who is heedful, ardent, & resolute.
MN 19

Let’s move on. So, a question. Why do you believe the Buddha taught the Realm of Nothingness to be a perception attainment? After all, it is nothingness?
Four simple meditations on earth, water, fire, and wind - leading to tranquility and pleasure, equanimity and peacehttps://drive.google.com/file/d/1G3qI6G ... sp=sharing

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