Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

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James Tan
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Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

Post by James Tan » Wed Jul 04, 2018 4:30 pm

Greetings ,

Is there any sutta mention that the cessation of feeling perception is belong to arupa realm ? Or it is not in the arupa realm category ? If not , what realm / category it should be referred as ?
:reading:

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Zom
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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

Post by Zom » Wed Jul 04, 2018 9:32 pm

It refers to nibbana.


(1)–(8) “Here, friend, secluded from sensual pleasures . . . a bhikkhu enters and dwells in the first jhāna. . . . To this extent, too, the Blessed One has spoken of directly visible nibbāna in a provisional sense. . . . (9) “Again, friend, by completely surmounting the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, a bhikkhu enters and dwells in the cessation of perception and feeling, and having seen with wisdom, his taints are utterly destroyed. To this extent, friend, the Blessed One has spoken of directly visible nibbāna in a non-provisional sense.”

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DooDoot
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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

Post by DooDoot » Wed Jul 04, 2018 9:38 pm

Zom wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 9:32 pm
...taints are utterly destroyed. To this extent, friend, the Blessed One has spoken of directly visible nibbāna in a non-provisional sense.
The above is Nibbana. Below is the cessation of feeling perception of a non-returner.
There Venerable Sāriputta addressed the mendicants: … “Reverends, take a mendicant who is accomplished in ethics, immersion, and wisdom. They might enter into and emerge from the cessation of perception and feeling.

That is possible.

If they don’t reach enlightenment in this very life, then, surpassing the company of gods that consume solid food, they’re reborn in a certain group of mind-made gods. There they might enter into and emerge from the cessation of perception and feeling.

https://suttacentral.net/an5.166/en/sujato

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Zom
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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

Post by Zom » Wed Jul 04, 2018 9:42 pm

If they don’t reach enlightenment in this very life, then, surpassing the company of gods that consume solid food, they’re reborn in a certain group of mind-made gods. There they might enter into and emerge from the cessation of perception and feeling.
Which means - they are non-returners, who will reach final nibbana in Pure Adobes; and non-returners are those who've seen nibbana directly, but some of defilements still remain in them.

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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

Post by DooDoot » Thu Jul 05, 2018 1:12 am

Zom wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 9:42 pm
Which means - they are non-returners, who will reach final nibbana in Pure Adobes; and non-returners are those who've seen nibbana directly, but some of defilements still remain in them.
It still does not sound like Nibbana. If I fly from New York to London, I don't reach London until landing at Heathrow Airport.
James Tan wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 4:30 pm
Is there any sutta mention that the cessation of feeling perception is belong to arupa realm ? Or it is not in the arupa realm category ? If not , what realm / category it should be referred as ?
Its not mentioned in the Thirty-one Planes of Existence.

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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

Post by Zom » Thu Jul 05, 2018 1:16 am

It is nibbana, as many suttas suggest, like MN 59 or AN 9.34.

As for non-returner and nibbana, again, as MN 64 says:

He turns his mind away from those states and directs it towards the deathless element thus: ‘This is the peaceful, this is the sublime, that is, the stilling of all formations, the relinquishing of all attachments, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, Nibbana. If he is steady in that, he attains the destruction of the taints. But if he does not attain the destruction of the taints because of that desire for the Dhamma, that delight in the Dhamma, then with the destruction of the five lower fetters he becomes one due to reappear spontaneously [in the Pure Abodes] and there attain final Nibb›na without ever returning from that world.

And also suttas say about the highest point of samsara, which is the sphere of neither perception nor non-perception. Cessation of feeling and perception is non-samsaric attainment.
Last edited by Zom on Thu Jul 05, 2018 1:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

Post by DooDoot » Thu Jul 05, 2018 1:21 am

Zom wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 1:16 am
He turns his mind away from those states and directs it towards the deathless element thus: ‘This is the peaceful, this is the sublime, that is, the stilling of all formations, the relinquishing of all attachments, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, Nibbana. If he is steady in that, he attains the destruction of the taints. But if he does not attain the destruction of the taints because of that desire for the Dhamma, that delight in the Dhamma, then with the destruction of the five lower fetters he becomes one due to reappear spontaneously [in the Pure Abodes] and there attain final Nibb›na without ever returning from that world.
This is the peaceful, this is the sublime, that is, the stilling (calming; samatha) of all formations, the relinquishing of all attachments, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, Nibbana IS NOT THE CESSATION OF PERCEPTION & FEELING. :roll:

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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

Post by Zom » Thu Jul 05, 2018 1:23 am

It is. Just don't ignore what suttas say.

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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

Post by DooDoot » Thu Jul 05, 2018 1:28 am

Zom wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 1:23 am
It is. Just don't ignore what suttas say.
Ud 8.1 refers to Nibbana is an "ayatana". Is Nirodha-Samapatti an "ayatana"? Or in MN 1, Nirodha-Samapatti is not listed as something clung to as 'self'. Maybe because Nirodha-Samapatti is not something experienced (just like deep sleep is not experienced).
What’s the difference between someone who has passed away and a mendicant who has attained the cessation of perception and feeling?”

“Yvāyaṃ, āvuso, mato kālaṅkato, yo cāyaṃ bhikkhu saññāvedayitanirodhaṃ samāpanno—imesaṃ kiṃ nānākaraṇan”ti?

“When someone dies, their physical, verbal, and mental processes have ceased and stilled; their vitality is spent; their warmth is dissipated; and their faculties have disintegrated.

Yvāyaṃ, āvuso, mato kālaṅkato tassa kāyasaṅkhārā niruddhā paṭippassaddhā, vacīsaṅkhārā niruddhā paṭippassaddhā, cittasaṅkhārā niruddhā paṭippassaddhā, āyu parikkhīṇo, usmā vūpasantā, indriyāni paribhinnāni.

When a mendicant has attained the cessation of perception and feeling, their physical, verbal, and mental processes have ceased and stilled. But their vitality is not spent; their warmth is not dissipated; and their faculties are very clear.

MN 43
Last edited by DooDoot on Thu Jul 05, 2018 1:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

Post by Zom » Thu Jul 05, 2018 1:32 am

Again, don't ignore what suttas say, like MN 59, AN 9.34, AN 9.47.

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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

Post by DooDoot » Thu Jul 05, 2018 1:33 am

Zom wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 1:32 am
Again, don't ignore what suttas say, like MN 59, AN 9.34, AN 9.47.
I am not ignoring what the suttas say. But you are imputing upon the suttas what is not there. Maybe SN 36.11 can help you avoid this papanca.
When one has attained the cessation of perception & feeling, perception & feeling have been stilled. When a monk's effluents have ended, passion has been stilled, aversion has been stilled, delusion has been stilled.

SN 36.11
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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

Post by Zom » Thu Jul 05, 2018 1:35 am

It is there, just go ahead and read them.

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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

Post by DooDoot » Thu Jul 05, 2018 1:36 am

Zom wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 1:35 am
It is there, just go ahead and read them.
I have read them. Nibbana is the destruction/uprooting of the taints via seeing with wisdom. Where as Nirodha-Samapatti does not necessarily uproot the taints.

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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

Post by Zom » Thu Jul 05, 2018 1:41 am

I have read them.
Why argue, when they are clear on the matter? )
Nibbana is the destruction/uprooting of the taints via seeing with wisdom. Where as Nirodha-Samapatti does not necessarily uproot the taints.
Seeing nibbana does not guarantee the destruction of all defilements at once, as I've shown with MN 64 passage. There is one more passage I recall from SN 12.68 though, simile with the well.

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Re: Which category belong to for the cessation of feeling perception ?

Post by DooDoot » Thu Jul 05, 2018 1:47 am

Zom wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 1:41 am
Why argue, when they are clear on the matter?
The suttas appear clear but your personal reading & interpretation of them is questionable.
Seeing with discernment, his fermentations were totally ended.
:candle:
Zom wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 1:41 am
Seeing nibbana does not guarantee the destruction of all defilements at once
I never mentioned seeing Nibbana. :roll: The suttas say: 'Seeing with discernment"

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