dream about alcohol

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dylanj
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dream about alcohol

Post by dylanj » Fri Jun 29, 2018 7:18 am

If I had a dream in which I voluntarily drank alcohol with awareness that it was unethical does that mean I haven't properly fulfilled the 5th precept?

I felt guilty while doing it & was 'aware' it was a breach of the precept, I chose to do it anyway.
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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Mr Man
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Re: dream about alcohol

Post by Mr Man » Fri Jun 29, 2018 7:24 am

dylanj wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 7:18 am
If I had a dream in which I voluntarily drank alcohol with awareness that it was unethical does that mean I haven't properly fulfilled the 5th precept?

I felt guilty while doing it & was 'aware' it was a breach of the precept, I chose to do it anyway.
No. It was a dream! You did not drink alcohol.

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rightviewftw
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Re: dream about alcohol

Post by rightviewftw » Fri Jun 29, 2018 7:33 am

One is not breaking the precepts in dreams, as for evidence i can point to the fact that it is not an offense of wrong doing to have sex in a dream for a monk.

I tend to think of dreams as being instrumental in showing how i could be at my worst behavior but i dont hold it to be a definite true indication of it, i merely entertain the idea as a reminder of work to be done.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Fri Jun 29, 2018 7:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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dylanj
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Re: dream about alcohol

Post by dylanj » Fri Jun 29, 2018 7:34 am

Mr Man wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 7:24 am
dylanj wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 7:18 am
If I had a dream in which I voluntarily drank alcohol with awareness that it was unethical does that mean I haven't properly fulfilled the 5th precept?

I felt guilty while doing it & was 'aware' it was a breach of the precept, I chose to do it anyway.
No. It was a dream! You did not drink alcohol.
I know I didn't break the precept but what I am concerned about is whether this indicates I have the potential to do so.
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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dylanj
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Re: dream about alcohol

Post by dylanj » Fri Jun 29, 2018 7:35 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 7:33 am
One is not breaking the precepts in dreams, as for evidence i can point to the fact that it is not an offense of wrong doing to have sex in a dream for a monk.
see my other reply, but good point
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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rightviewftw
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Re: dream about alcohol

Post by rightviewftw » Fri Jun 29, 2018 7:58 am

dylanj wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 7:35 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 7:33 am
One is not breaking the precepts in dreams, as for evidence i can point to the fact that it is not an offense of wrong doing to have sex in a dream for a monk.
see my other reply, but good point
In regards to being an indication of potential i think that there are some problems with taking it a definite indication of potential. As i understand it dreams unfold a lot faster than conventional reality, there is often no occasion to reflect over behavior. Another difference is that when dreaming one is in a middle of a situation right away so dreams are a lot more reactive for these reasons.

Basically how i view it is that if i was in that exact situation i would have potential to act as in the dreams but being in such situation is as i understand it not possible because of the differences between conventional and dream realities, making the comparison somewhat absurd to that extent.

However i do think that dreams are somewhat useful. Ie you drank alcohol and feel bad, thus you "freerolled" that experience in the sense that you arrived at the conclusion that it is a bad idea without actually drinking. Also there seems to be a correlation between one's character irl and the dreams, ie one could meditate in dreams, recall the training or one may abstain from sex in dreams because one has been developing proper perceptions irl. So there seems to be some correlation afterall.

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Mr Man
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Re: dream about alcohol

Post by Mr Man » Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:22 am

dylanj wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 7:34 am
Mr Man wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 7:24 am
dylanj wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 7:18 am
If I had a dream in which I voluntarily drank alcohol with awareness that it was unethical does that mean I haven't properly fulfilled the 5th precept?

I felt guilty while doing it & was 'aware' it was a breach of the precept, I chose to do it anyway.
No. It was a dream! You did not drink alcohol.
I know I didn't break the precept but what I am concerned about is whether this indicates I have the potential to do so.
Why wouldn't you have the potential?

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dylanj
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Re: dream about alcohol

Post by dylanj » Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:25 am

Mr Man wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:22 am
dylanj wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 7:34 am
Mr Man wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 7:24 am


No. It was a dream! You did not drink alcohol.
I know I didn't break the precept but what I am concerned about is whether this indicates I have the potential to do so.
Why wouldn't you have the potential?
ethical restraint, i'd hope
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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Mr Man
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Re: dream about alcohol

Post by Mr Man » Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:39 am

dylanj wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:25 am
Mr Man wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:22 am
dylanj wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 7:34 am


I know I didn't break the precept but what I am concerned about is whether this indicates I have the potential to do so.
Why wouldn't you have the potential?
ethical restraint, i'd hope
I don't think ethical restraint removes the potential. Restraint is an on-going thing.

Even if one is free from doubt about the importance of maintaining the precepts, I would say, the possibility to break them remains.

I would imagine the cause for intentionally taking alcohol would be sensual desire.

Laurens
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Re: dream about alcohol

Post by Laurens » Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:45 am

"if my thought-dreams could be seen, they'd probably put my head in a guillotine," - Bob Dylan

I don't think we can control the thoughts that sometimes pop into our heads let alone the dreams we have. We can choose whether or not we identify with them.

I had a dream recently where I was trying to hide bloody clothes for some reason. Did I break the precept not to kill? Nah... Well not in this dimension anyway...
"If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?"

Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

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dylanj
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Re: dream about alcohol

Post by dylanj » Fri Jun 29, 2018 9:12 am

Laurens wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:45 am
"if my thought-dreams could be seen, they'd probably put my head in a guillotine," - Bob Dylan

I don't think we can control the thoughts that sometimes pop into our heads let alone the dreams we have. We can choose whether or not we identify with them.

I had a dream recently where I was trying to hide bloody clothes for some reason. Did I break the precept not to kill? Nah... Well not in this dimension anyway...
as i already said, i'm not asking if i broke the precept
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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Bundokji
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Re: dream about alcohol

Post by Bundokji » Fri Jun 29, 2018 9:24 am

dylanj wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 7:18 am
If I had a dream in which I voluntarily drank alcohol with awareness that it was unethical does that mean I haven't properly fulfilled the 5th precept?

I felt guilty while doing it & was 'aware' it was a breach of the precept, I chose to do it anyway.
I would say yes, it indicates that your mind is still defiled.

I ve heard that Arahants don't dream.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

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Pseudobabble
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Re: dream about alcohol

Post by Pseudobabble » Fri Jun 29, 2018 12:56 pm

Mr Man has answered this perfectly.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha

justindesilva
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Re: dream about alcohol

Post by justindesilva » Fri Jun 29, 2018 2:58 pm

dylanj wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 7:34 am
Mr Man wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 7:24 am
dylanj wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 7:18 am
If I had a dream in which I voluntarily drank alcohol with awareness that it was unethical does that mean I haven't properly fulfilled the 5th precept?

I felt guilty while doing it & was 'aware' it was a breach of the precept, I chose to do it anyway.
No. It was a dream! You did not drink alcohol.
I know I didn't break the precept but what I am concerned about is whether this indicates I have the potential to do so.
Consuming alcohol cannot be akusala, as it is not intentional with vingnana at awaken state. But it is an indication that the passion to consume alcohol is a latent
desire.
It is explained in Anusaya sutta AN 7.11 that obsessions for a noble life are 1. sensual passion 2. resistances
3. views 4. uncertainty 5. Conceit 6. passion for becoming & 7. obsession of ignorance.
These are our latent obsessions remaining in our citta and as is latent awakes in dreams.
AN 7.12 explains that by destruction and abandoning of these seven obsessessions one reaches the holy status.
Anusaya is also is explained as fermenting desires within us and biologists explain that it is this anusaya responsible for the activation of hormones in our daily passionate desires.

JohnK
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Re: dream about alcohol

Post by JohnK » Fri Jun 29, 2018 3:14 pm

dylanj wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:25 am
Mr Man wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:22 am
dylanj wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 7:34 am


I know I didn't break the precept but what I am concerned about is whether this indicates I have the potential to do so.
Why wouldn't you have the potential?
ethical restraint, i'd hope
It seems to me that restraint is only necessary if there IS potential (otherwise there is nothing to restrain).
Edit: So, if there is no potential, one might get credit for purity, but not for restraint.
(I'm just using the logic of the English term here -- perhaps the Pali word is different.)
"...the practice is essentially a practice, and not a theory to be idly discussed...right view leaves unanswered many questions about the cosmos and the self, and directs your attention to what needs to be done to escape from the ravages of suffering." Thanissaro Bhikkhu, On The Path.

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