Pondera wrote: ↑Sun Jun 24, 2018 5:21 amNibbana is the end of suffering - the end of pain and the end of sensual desire.
The suttas appear to not define Nibbana as above. The above appears to be your own personal idiosyncratic ideas & fabrications.
Pondera wrote: ↑Sun Jun 24, 2018 5:21 am Therefore, the ending of lust, hatred, and delusion is not enough to guarantee an Arahant or a Buddha emancipation from suffering
all the time.
The suttas appear to define & summarize suffering as "
attachment to the five aggregates" (SN 56.11). Attachment seems to be the problem (MN 37). I think SN 22.1 is an excellent sutta for beginners to Buddhist theory because it was taught to a very old man with lots of bodily pain and taught in a very simple way that even a child can comprehend.
Pondera wrote: ↑Sun Jun 24, 2018 5:21 amWhat does the Buddha have to say. He says that “only when the Tathagata, disregarding external objects, with the cessation of certain feelings, attains to and abides in the signless concentration of mind, that his body is more comfortable”.
Good question. I think possibly only an arahant would know the answer. However, i think it is the case when the body is afflicted by pain, the body itself becomes exhausted. It does not mean the mind is suffering; even though the pain might be unbearable.
Please note: In the quote, the Buddha says: "
his body is more comfortable". It appears the Buddha is not referring to his mind.
For example, when I get physically tortured by my Thai masseur, it can be extremely
oppressive; but i don't really suffer over it. If she asked: "I am hurting you to much", I just smile & say: "
Mai pen rai krup;
mai took mai sook".
Reverend Sāriputta, I’m not keeping well, I’m not alright. The pain is terrible and growing, not fading; its growing is evident, not its fading. The winds piercing my head are so severe, it feels like a strong man drilling into my head with a sharp point. The pain in my head is so severe, it feels like a strong man tightening a tough leather strap around my head. The winds piercing my belly are so severe, it feels like an expert butcher or their apprentice is slicing my belly open with a meat cleaver. The burning in my body is so severe, it feels like two strong men grabbing a weaker man by the arms to burn and scorch him on a pit of glowing coals. I’m not keeping well, I’m not alright. The pain is terrible and growing, not fading; its growing is evident, not its fading. Reverend Sāriputta, I will commit suicide. I don’t wish to live.”
Pondera wrote: ↑Sun Jun 24, 2018 6:53 am
Revisit the first noble truth. You will find that, by definition, pain is suffering. Revisit the first noble truth.
No. The first noble truth appears to summarise all suffering as attachment (upadana).
saṃkhittena pañcupādānakkhandhā dukkhā.
in brief, the five aggregates subject to clinging are suffering.
In brief, the five grasping aggregates are suffering.
in short, suffering is the five categories of clinging objects.
in brief the five aggregates subject to grasping are suffering.
In short, the five clinging-aggregates are stressful.
SN 56.11
Twice above, Pondera it seems you failed to literally read the sutta. For DN 16, it appears you did not read the Buddha say his "body" is more comfortable; similar to the Buddha saying that not sitting in very hot sun or in freezing ice the body is more comfortable. For SN 56.11, it appears you did not read the summary or defining ("
saṃkhittena") of what dukkha really is.
Since the 1st sermon was spoken to five puthujjana, it appears probable that the Lord Buddha, to gain the trust & faith of the five puthujjana, first had to give evidence of his competence & explain what the ordinary unenligthened worldly view of what suffering is, namely, giving birth, getting sick, getting old, death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, despair, separation, etc. Then (afterwards) it seems the Buddha summarized all of this suffering as in reality being attachment & egoism (upadana).
For example, if "pain" was suffering according to the 1st noble truth, then separation from the loved would always be suffering.
17. Then, when the Blessed One had passed away, some bhikkhus, not yet freed from passion, lifted up their arms and wept; and some, flinging themselves on the ground, rolled from side to side and wept, lamenting: "Too soon has the Blessed One come to his Parinibbana! Too soon has the Happy One come to his Parinibbana! Too soon has the Eye of the World vanished from sight!"
But the bhikkhus who were freed from passion, mindful and clearly comprehending, reflected in this way: "Impermanent are all compounded things. How could this be otherwise?"
18. And the Venerable Anuruddha addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Enough, friends! Do not grieve, do not lament! For has not the Blessed One declared that with all that is dear and beloved there must be change, separation, and severance? Of that which is born, come into being, compounded and subject to decay, how can one say: 'May it not come to dissolution!'? The deities, friends, are aggrieved."
DN 16
Revisit the first noble truth. You will find that, by definition, ATTACHMENT is suffering. Revisit the first noble truth.