Does a Buddha Suffer after Enlightenment

[Pondera]

That particular state is said to be still a conditioned one, and temporary, in the sense that it is not what is pointed at as being nibbana. You seem to be putting your marbles on something that is also illusory. Heresy is also illusory. All of that is sorted through your thinking structure which cannot know what the end of suffering is because it is suffering itself. Any movement you make within this structure will be illusory and give you no real answers to your imaginary questions that are created by this very same thought structure. You can only imagine. I'm sorry to be so blunt, but that seems to be the long and short of it.

Show me a sutta where cessation of feeling and perception is a conditioned state. Conditioned by what exactly? You won’t be able to and you won’t be able to answer either.

The formless jhana of Sanna Vedayita Nirodha, Cessation of Sensation and Feeling, is not referred to as nibbana by Buddhism. This is like a dead man's state, perhaps necessary, but not final. The Buddha awoke out of this and was then able to see how Dependent Origination/Paticca Samupadda worked. He saw how perception creates the world, self, the objective and subjective, which is suffering. According to Bh. Punnaji, This is awakening from the dream of existence. Nirodha Samapatti is the seeing of what is going on, the stopping of bhava=existence. Cessation is nibbana. You are a Buddha.

The shortcut is entering the 4th jhana and analyzing the 5 constituents of the process of perception, Pancha Khandhas. When you understand this, you understand the Paticca-Samupādda. I believe Sariputta took the shortcut. Nibbana is unconditioned. Everything else is a form of conditioned existence.

You’re stringing sentences together without making much of a point. Show me a sutta to back up your claims!

[Pondera]

"Furthermore, there is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of the dimension of nothingness, enters & remains in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. If, as he remains there, he is beset with attention to perceptions dealing with the dimension of nothingness, that is an affliction for him. Now, the Blessed One has said that whatever is an affliction is stress. So by this line of reasoning it may be known how pleasant Unbinding is.

"Furthermore, there is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, enters & remains in the cessation of perception & feeling. And, having seen [that] with discernment, his mental fermentations are completely ended. So by this line of reasoning it may be known how Unbinding is pleasant."

AN 9.34

It is by virtue of attaining to the cessation of perception and feeling that one can end his fermentations, and enter into an Unbinding which is pleasant - where nothing is felt.

[Saengnapha]

Show me a sutta where cessation of feeling and perception is a conditioned state. Conditioned by what exactly? You won’t be able to and you won’t be able to answer either.

The formless jhana of Sanna Vedayita Nirodha, Cessation of Sensation and Feeling, is not referred to as nibbana by Buddhism. This is like a dead man's state, perhaps necessary, but not final. The Buddha awoke out of this and was then able to see how Dependent Origination/Paticca Samupadda worked. He saw how perception creates the world, self, the objective and subjective, which is suffering. According to Bh. Punnaji, This is awakening from the dream of existence. Nirodha Samapatti is the seeing of what is going on, the stopping of bhava=existence. Cessation is nibbana. You are a Buddha.

The shortcut is entering the 4th jhana and analyzing the 5 constituents of the process of perception, Pancha Khandhas. When you understand this, you understand the Paticca-Samupādda. I believe Sariputta took the shortcut. Nibbana is unconditioned. Everything else is a form of conditioned existence.

You’re stringing sentences together without making much of a point. Show me a sutta to back up your claims!

I think what I wrote has some bearing on what is being discussed. If you don't agree or see it that way, I don't have any more to add. Personally, I don't think about things in this way at all. For me, when there is grasping, there is no seeing, no insight. Speculation leads nowhere. I'm not really interested in it.

[Pondera]

The formless jhana of Sanna Vedayita Nirodha, Cessation of Sensation and Feeling, is not referred to as nibbana by Buddhism. This is like a dead man's state, perhaps necessary, but not final. The Buddha awoke out of this and was then able to see how Dependent Origination/Paticca Samupadda worked. He saw how perception creates the world, self, the objective and subjective, which is suffering. According to Bh. Punnaji, This is awakening from the dream of existence. Nirodha Samapatti is the seeing of what is going on, the stopping of bhava=existence. Cessation is nibbana. You are a Buddha.

The shortcut is entering the 4th jhana and analyzing the 5 constituents of the process of perception, Pancha Khandhas. When you understand this, you understand the Paticca-Samupādda. I believe Sariputta took the shortcut. Nibbana is unconditioned. Everything else is a form of conditioned existence.

You’re stringing sentences together without making much of a point. Show me a sutta to back up your claims!

I think what I wrote has some bearing on what is being discussed. If you don't agree or see it that way, I don't have any more to add. Personally, I don't think about things in this way at all. For me, when there is grasping, there is no seeing, no insight. Speculation leads nowhere. I'm not really interested in it.

Sure

Just one off topic question before you leave the discussion. Would you consider your self a “post-modernist”?

[Saengnapha]

You’re stringing sentences together without making much of a point. Show me a sutta to back up your claims!

I think what I wrote has some bearing on what is being discussed. If you don't agree or see it that way, I don't have any more to add. Personally, I don't think about things in this way at all. For me, when there is grasping, there is no seeing, no insight. Speculation leads nowhere. I'm not really interested in it.

Sure

Just one off topic question before you leave the discussion. Would you consider your self a “post-modernist”?

Embarassingly, I don't know what that means and will probably not look it up. I am not very keen on labels and see it as an unnecessary element of philosophy that has no use other than comparative study, which I am also not really interested in but have engaged in at times in the past. I can easily live without all the extraneous definitions of what my actual experience is.

[Pondera]

I think what I wrote has some bearing on what is being discussed. If you don't agree or see it that way, I don't have any more to add. Personally, I don't think about things in this way at all. For me, when there is grasping, there is no seeing, no insight. Speculation leads nowhere. I'm not really interested in it.

Sure

Just one off topic question before you leave the discussion. Would you consider your self a “post-modernist”?

Embarassingly, I don't know what that means and will probably not look it up. I am not very keen on labels and see it as an unnecessary element of philosophy that has no use other than comparative study, which I am also not really interested in but have engaged in at times in the past. I can easily live without all the extraneous definitions of what my actual experience is.

Fair enough. No need to be embarrassed. Adieu.

[Zom]

You’re stringing sentences together without making much of a point. Show me a sutta to back up your claims!

Claims are not correct. Nirodha-samapatti is nibbana. Here AN 9.47:

“It is said, friend, ‘directly visible nibbāna, directly visible
nibbāna.’ In what way has the Blessed One spoken of directly
visible nibbāna?”
(1)–(8) “Here, friend, secluded from sensual pleasures . . . a
bhikkhu enters and dwells in the first jhāna. . . . To this extent,
too, the Blessed One has spoken of directly visible nibbāna in
a provisional sense. . . .
(9) “Again, friend, by completely surmounting the base of
neither-perception-nor-non-perception, a bhikkhu enters and
dwells in the cessation of perception and feeling, and having
seen with wisdom, his taints are utterly destroyed. To this
extent, friend, the Blessed One has spoken of directly visible
nibbāna in a non-provisional sense.”

[Dhammanando]

You’re stringing sentences together without making much of a point. Show me a sutta to back up your claims!

Claims are not correct. Nirodha-samapatti is nibbana. Here AN 9.47:

“It is said, friend, ‘directly visible nibbāna, directly visible
nibbāna.’ In what way has the Blessed One spoken of directly
visible nibbāna?”
(1)–(8) “Here, friend, secluded from sensual pleasures . . . a
bhikkhu enters and dwells in the first jhāna. . . . To this extent,
too, the Blessed One has spoken of directly visible nibbāna in
a provisional sense. . . .
(9) “Again, friend, by completely surmounting the base of
neither-perception-nor-non-perception, a bhikkhu enters and
dwells in the cessation of perception and feeling, and having
seen with wisdom, his taints are utterly destroyed. To this
extent, friend, the Blessed One has spoken of directly visible
nibbāna in a non-provisional sense.”

If that were the case, would it not follow that only the ubhatobhāgavimutta arahant has attained Nibbāna, while the paññāvimutta arahant, lacking the eight vimokkhas, has not?

“What kind of person is one liberated-in-both-ways? Here some person contacts with the body and abides in those liberations that are peaceful and immaterial, transcending forms, and his taints are destroyed by his seeing with wisdom. This kind of person is called one liberated-in-both-ways. I do not say of such a bhikkhu that he still has work to do with diligence. Why is that? He has done his work with diligence; he is no more capable of being negligent.

“What kind of person is one liberated-by-wisdom? Here some person does not contact with the body and abide in those liberations that are peaceful and immaterial, transcending forms, but his taints are destroyed by his seeing with wisdom. This kind of person is called one liberated-by-wisdom. I do not say of such a bhikkhu that he still has work to do with diligence. Why is that? He has done his work with diligence; he is no more capable of being negligent.

[SDC]

I think people may be reading into this too much - I think I've done that in the past.

For the arahant or the Buddha, that overall suffering resulting from understanding rooted in ignorance is gone. Any physical pain or mental deterioration is not going to be attributed or applied to a self; it will be exclusive to the body, not "my body", just the body, i.e. there is no ownership associated with that suffering. This should not be paralleled with the suffering stated in the first noble truth unless done carefully - as has been pointed out, that suffering is "clinging" to the aggregates and not the mere presence of a body that is in a state of discomfort. The difference is cavernous.

[DooDoot]

why he would want to alleviate that pain through the cessation of feeling

Again, the sutta does not say this. I would suggest to literally read the sutta.

Now I am frail, Ananda, old, aged, far gone in years. This is my eightieth year, and my life is spent. Even as an old cart, Ananda, is held together with much difficulty, so the body of the Tathagata is kept going only with supports. It is, Ananda, only when the Tathagata, disregarding external objects, with the cessation of certain feelings, attains to and abides in the signless concentration of mind, that his body is more comfortable.

No need to be embarrassed.

In the suttas, a senses of embarrassment appears to be important:

‘Do I have any superhuman distinctions in knowledge and vision worthy of the noble ones, so that when my spiritual companions question me on my deathbed I will not be embarrassed?’

https://suttacentral.net/an10.48/en/sujato

It is by virtue of attaining to the cessation of perception and feeling that one can end his fermentations, and enter into an Unbinding which is pleasant - where nothing is felt.

This has been discussed many times. Attaining to the cessation of perception and feeling is not a necessary path for ending the fermentations.

And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents? There is the case where a monk remains focused on arising & falling away with reference to the five clinging-aggregates: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is feeling, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is perception, such its origination, such its passing away. Such are fabrications, such their origination, such their passing away. Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents.

AN 4.41

(44) Others will misapprehend according to their individual views, hold on to them tenaciously and not easily discard them; we shall not misapprehend according to individual views nor hold on to them tenaciously, but shall discard them with ease — thus effacement can be done.

MN 8

[mikenz66]

I think people may be reading into this too much - I think I've done that in the past.

For the arahant or the Buddha, that overall suffering resulting from understanding rooted in ignorance is gone. Any physical pain or mental deterioration is not going to be attributed or applied to a self; it will be exclusive to the body, not "my body", just the body, i.e. there is no ownership associated with that suffering. This should not be paralleled with the suffering stated in the first noble truth unless done carefully - as has been pointed out, that suffering is "clinging" to the aggregates and not the mere presence of a body that is in a state of discomfort. The difference is cavernous.

Exactly as Robert and I quoted: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=32250#p478673

Mere suffering exists, no sufferer is found;

Mike

[SDC]

Exactly as Robert and I quoted: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=32250#p478673

Mere suffering exists, no sufferer is found;

Mike

For the arahat, absolutely, but I can't help but keep in mind that ignorance points to a sufferer, and that pointing - the press for recognition as Ven. Nanavira called it - is enough for self-view to manifest in the experience. Even if the extent of that manifestation cannot be positively identified, there is a negativity to that pressing/pointing, and the presence of such a negativity is all that is needed for it to be an influential position; despite the fact that there is nothing there to "see". The position is cloaked in the potency of that negativity (potency of ignorance really). Or as far as the non-ariya is concerned: self is.

Indeed, the suffering resulting from that ignorance is what neither the Buddha nor the arahat would ever experience again no matter happens to the body mentally or physically. I find that degree of freedom infinitely more significant than whether or not the Buddha had a back ache, so to even equate the two under the umbrella of suffering seems a bit strange. Totally waters down nibbana if you ask me.

[robertk]

Exactly as Robert and I quoted: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=32250#p478673

Mere suffering exists, no sufferer is found;

Mike

For the arahat, absolutely, but I can't help but keep in mind that ignorance points to a sufferer, and that pointing - the press for recognition as Ven. Nanavira called it - is enough.



I find that degree of freedom infinitely more significant than whether or not the Buddha had a back ache, so to even equate the two under the umbrella of suffering seems a bit strange. Totally waters down nibbana if you ask me.

Even the one who has a basic, correct understanding of Dhamma knows that there is only dukkha, no self, no "one" who has dukkha. And indeed this is true (anatta)whether one thinks there is a self or not.

But until ignorance is completely eradicated there is still aversion and craving which add to that dukkha.

And then even the arahat still has painful bodily feeling: but no painful mental feeling.
And of course he still has the dukkha of arising and passing away, sankhara dukkha, at every moment.

So it is not until complete khandha parinibbana, the final death of the arahat, that all dukkha ceases.

[Pondera]

why he would want to alleviate that pain through the cessation of feeling

Again, the sutta does not say this. I would suggest to literally read the sutta.

Now I am frail, Ananda, old, aged, far gone in years. This is my eightieth year, and my life is spent. Even as an old cart, Ananda, is held together with much difficulty, so the body of the Tathagata is kept going only with supports. It is, Ananda, only when the Tathagata, disregarding external objects, withthe cessation of certain feelings, attains to and abides in the signless concentration of mind, that his body is more comfortable.

The sutta literally says that he attains to and abides in etc. with the cessation of certain feelings - only when disregarding external objects. The Buddha is clearly entering the signless concentration on account of the cessation of these “certain” feelings. Furthermore, he is non-percipient of external objects. This is the cessation of feeling and perception - even if you only want to limit it to “certain” feelings.

No need to be embarrassed.

In the suttas, a senses of embarrassment appears to be important:

‘Do I have any superhuman distinctions in knowledge and vision worthy of the noble ones, so that when my spiritual companions question me on my deathbed I will not be embarrassed?’

https://suttacentral.net/an10.48/en/sujato

Are you here only to cause problems? Go back and read why I said that. It was an English speakers way of saying, “oh. You don’t know what a “post modernist” is. Don’t worry.”

Do you think he should actually be embarrassed that he isn’t aware of this term. Is there anything Buddhist about that exchange. Are you here only to cause problems. ???

It is by virtue of attaining to the cessation of perception and feeling that one can end his fermentations, and enter into an Unbinding which is pleasant - where nothing is felt.

This has been discussed many times. Attaining to the cessation of perception and feeling is not a necessary path for ending the fermentations.

I’m aware of that. It is however the highest and best way and I can quote you something on that if you like. I already have in fact.

And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents? There is the case where a monk remains focused on arising & falling away with reference to the five clinging-aggregates: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is feeling, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is perception, such its origination, such its passing away. Such are fabrications, such their origination, such their passing away. Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents.

AN 4.41

And yet I’m sure you haven’t the slightest idea what the “passing away of consciousness” actually implies in Buddhist practise. You still think cessation of feeling and perception is an unconscious state!

(44) Others will misapprehend according to their individual views, hold on to them tenaciously and not easily discard them; we shall not misapprehend according to individual views nor hold on to them tenaciously, but shall discard them with ease — thus effacement can be done.

MN 8

Speaking for your self?

[chownah]

Have we forgotten that suffering there is but no one who suffers?
chownah