Do you believe in the infallibility of the Buddha's word?

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Do you believe in the infallibility of the Buddha's word?

Yes
17
57%
No
13
43%
 
Total votes: 30

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dylanj
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Re: Do you believe in the infallibility of the Buddha's word?

Post by dylanj » Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:42 pm

Pseudobabble wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:33 pm
dylanj wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:22 pm
If the Buddha told me the Earth is flat I would believe it.
:rofl:
:rofl:
:rofl:
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Image
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this: 'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I.'

Majjhima Nikāya 70
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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Pseudobabble
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Re: Do you believe in the infallibility of the Buddha's word?

Post by Pseudobabble » Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:45 pm

dylanj wrote:
Very nice, Dylan. If the Buddha told you up was down, would you believe it?
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha

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dylanj
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Re: Do you believe in the infallibility of the Buddha's word?

Post by dylanj » Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:48 pm

Pseudobabble wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:45 pm
dylanj wrote:
Very nice, Dylan. If the Buddha told you up was down, would you believe it?
i would believe every word that came out of his mouth. however, unfactual & untrue words would not come out of his mouth.
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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Pseudobabble
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Re: Do you believe in the infallibility of the Buddha's word?

Post by Pseudobabble » Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:58 pm

dylanj wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:48 pm
Pseudobabble wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:45 pm
dylanj wrote:
Very nice, Dylan. If the Buddha told you up was down, would you believe it?
i would believe every word that came out of his mouth. however, unfactual & untrue words would not come out of his mouth.
Alright, if it works for you, who am I to question it.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha

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Polar Bear
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Re: Do you believe in the infallibility of the Buddha's word?

Post by Polar Bear » Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:00 pm

dylanj wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:50 pm

Do you think modern physiological science is complete & perfected? Do you think it's infallible? I certainly don't & would not be the least bit surprised if discoveries were made in the future that changed the dominant perspective on these processes.
I think it’s safe to say that their isn’t a fire in your intestines right now. Unless you’ve just now tried to light your fart on fire and the flame has traveled up your rectum into your colon, in which case, I wish you a safe trip to the hospital. :tongue:
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

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Polar Bear
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Re: Do you believe in the infallibility of the Buddha's word?

Post by Polar Bear » Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:07 pm

dylanj wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:20 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:14 pm
Dhp 353
All-conquering,
all-knowing am I,
with regard to all things,
unadhering.
All-abandoning,
released in the ending of craving:
having fully known on my own,
to whom should I point as my teacher?
:bow:
:bow:
And how is one all knowing in the discipline of the noble ones:
When he said this, Venerable Moggallāna asked the Buddha: “Sir, how do you briefly define a mendicant who is freed through the ending of craving, who has reached the ultimate end, the ultimate sanctuary, the ultimate spiritual life, the ultimate goal, and is best among gods and humans?”
“It’s when a mendicant has heard: ‘Nothing is worth clinging on to.’ When a mendicant has heard that nothing is worth clinging on to, they directly know all things. Directly knowing all things, they completely understand all things. Having completely understood all things, when they experience any kind of feeling—pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral— they meditate observing impermanence, dispassion, cessation, and letting go in those feelings. Meditating in this way, they don’t grasp at anything in the world. Not grasping, they’re not anxious. Not being anxious, they personally become extinguished. They understand: ‘Rebirth is ended, the spiritual journey has been completed, what had to be done has been done, there is no return to any state of existence.’ That’s how I briefly define a mendicant who is freed through the ending of craving, who has reached the ultimate end, the ultimate sanctuary, the ultimate spiritual life, the ultimate goal, and is best among gods and humans.”

https://suttacentral.net/an7.61/en/sujato
:anjali:
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

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rightviewftw
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Re: Do you believe in the infallibility of the Buddha's word?

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Jun 23, 2018 12:18 am

Polar Bear wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:07 pm
dylanj wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:20 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:14 pm
Dhp 353


:bow:
:bow:
And how is one all knowing in the discipline of the noble ones:
When he said this, Venerable Moggallāna asked the Buddha: “Sir, how do you briefly define a mendicant who is freed through the ending of craving, who has reached the ultimate end, the ultimate sanctuary, the ultimate spiritual life, the ultimate goal, and is best among gods and humans?”
“It’s when a mendicant has heard: ‘Nothing is worth clinging on to.’ When a mendicant has heard that nothing is worth clinging on to, they directly know all things. Directly knowing all things, they completely understand all things. Having completely understood all things, when they experience any kind of feeling—pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral— they meditate observing impermanence, dispassion, cessation, and letting go in those feelings. Meditating in this way, they don’t grasp at anything in the world. Not grasping, they’re not anxious. Not being anxious, they personally become extinguished. They understand: ‘Rebirth is ended, the spiritual journey has been completed, what had to be done has been done, there is no return to any state of existence.’ That’s how I briefly define a mendicant who is freed through the ending of craving, who has reached the ultimate end, the ultimate sanctuary, the ultimate spiritual life, the ultimate goal, and is best among gods and humans.”

https://suttacentral.net/an7.61/en/sujato
:anjali:
It is good that you point it out but keep in mind that the second quote refers to Arahants in general. According to the commentaries the Buddha is omniscient in the sense that all knowable things are potentially accessible to him.

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Polar Bear
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Re: Do you believe in the infallibility of the Buddha's word?

Post by Polar Bear » Sat Jun 23, 2018 1:06 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 12:18 am

It is good that you point it out but keep in mind that the second quote refers to Arahants in general. According to the commentaries the Buddha is omniscient in the sense that all knowable things are potentially accessible to him.
I disagree with the commentary in this case. I would encourage you to read Venerable Anālayo’s short article The Buddha and Omniscience.

:anjali:
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

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rightviewftw
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Re: Do you believe in the infallibility of the Buddha's word?

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Jun 23, 2018 1:13 am

Polar Bear wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 1:06 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 12:18 am

It is good that you point it out but keep in mind that the second quote refers to Arahants in general. According to the commentaries the Buddha is omniscient in the sense that all knowable things are potentially accessible to him.
I disagree with the commentary in this case. I would encourage you to read Venerable Anālayo’s short article The Buddha and Omniscience.

:anjali:
Thanks I will read but in general i don't like to speculate on the matter because;
Acintita Sutta: Unconjecturable

"There are these four unconjecturables that are not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about them. Which four?

"The Buddha-range of the Buddhas[1] is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it.

"The jhana-range of a person in jhana...[2]

"The [precise working out of the] results of kamma...

"Conjecture about [the origin, etc., of] the world is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it.

"These are the four unconjecturables that are not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about them."
Notes

1.
I.e., the range of powers a Buddha develops as a result of becoming a Buddha.
Fwiw I have read most of it and i think some of the points he makes can be challenged ie;
The only way to uphold the Buddha’s omniscience in the face of such events is to adopt
the kind of argument criticized in the Sandaka Sutta, assuming that the Buddha “had to do it”.

I don't think it is the only way and i do not agree with his assertion on how pre-determination could manifest itself in a beginningless system.

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rightviewftw
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Re: Do you believe in the infallibility of the Buddha's word?

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Jun 23, 2018 2:34 am

I think he makes some good points nevertheless. I can't know exactly what information is accesible to The Tathagata apart from the three higher knowledges and what is evident from the Sutta but it also seems an impossible task to grasp the implications of those.
Anyway thanks for bringing it up.

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salayatananirodha
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Re: Do you believe in the infallibility of the Buddha's word?

Post by salayatananirodha » Sat Jun 23, 2018 3:22 am

Polar Bear wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:00 pm
dylanj wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:50 pm

Do you think modern physiological science is complete & perfected? Do you think it's infallible? I certainly don't & would not be the least bit surprised if discoveries were made in the future that changed the dominant perspective on these processes.
I think it’s safe to say that their isn’t a fire in your intestines right now. Unless you’ve just now tried to light your fart on fire and the flame has traveled up your rectum into your colon, in which case, I wish you a safe trip to the hospital. :tongue:
"And what is the fire property? The fire property may be either internal or external. What is the internal fire property? Anything internal, belonging to oneself, that's fire, fiery, & sustained: that by which [the body] is warmed, aged, & consumed with fever; and that by which what is eaten, drunk, consumed & tasted gets properly digested; or anything else internal, within oneself, that's fire, fiery, & sustained: This is called the internal fire property. Now both the internal fire property & the external fire property are simply fire property. And that should be seen as it actually is present with right discernment: 'This is not mine, this is not me, this is not my self.' When one sees it thus as it actually is present with right discernment, one becomes disenchanted with the fire property and makes the fire property fade from the mind.
- excerpt from MN 140

One important form of energy, relative to life on Earth, is kinetic energy. Simply defined, kinetic energy is the energy of motion. The amount of kinetic energy that a body possesses is dependent on the speed of its motion and its mass. At the atomic scale, the kinetic energy of atoms and molecules is sometimes referred to as heat energy.

Kinetic energy is also related to the concept of temperature.
www.physicalgeography.net/fundamentals/6c.html
What is a fire? https://science.howstuffworks.com/envir ... s/fire.htm
Inflammation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflammation
Heat stroke https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-con ... c-20353581
16. 'In what has the world originated?' — so said the Yakkha Hemavata, — 'with what is the world intimate? by what is the world afflicted, after having grasped at what?' (167)

17. 'In six the world has originated, O Hemavata,' — so said Bhagavat, — 'with six it is intimate, by six the world is afflicted, after having grasped at six.' (168)

- Hemavatasutta


links:
https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/index.htm
http://thaiforestwisdom.org/canonical-texts/
http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html

Ruud
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Re: Do you believe in the infallibility of the Buddha's word?

Post by Ruud » Sat Jun 23, 2018 5:49 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 1:13 am
Thanks I will read but in general i don't like to speculate on the matter because;
Acintita Sutta: Unconjecturable

"There are these four unconjecturables that are not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about them. Which four?

"The Buddha-range of the Buddhas[1] is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it.

"The jhana-range of a person in jhana...[2]

"The [precise working out of the] results of kamma...

"Conjecture about [the origin, etc., of] the world is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it.

"These are the four unconjecturables that are not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about them."
Notes

1.
I.e., the range of powers a Buddha develops as a result of becoming a Buddha.
How is claiming his omniscience not an inconjecturable, but claiming he might not be is?
Dry up what pertains to the past,
do not take up anything to come later.
If you will not grasp in the middle,
you will live at peace.
—Snp.5.11,v.1099 (tr. Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi)

Whatever is will be was. —Ven. Ñānamoli, A Thinkers Notebook, §221

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rightviewftw
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Re: Do you believe in the infallibility of the Buddha's word?

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Jun 23, 2018 5:57 am

Ruud wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 5:49 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 1:13 am
Thanks I will read but in general i don't like to speculate on the matter because;
Acintita Sutta: Unconjecturable

"There are these four unconjecturables that are not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about them. Which four?

"The Buddha-range of the Buddhas[1] is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it.

"The jhana-range of a person in jhana...[2]

"The [precise working out of the] results of kamma...

"Conjecture about [the origin, etc., of] the world is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it.

"These are the four unconjecturables that are not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about them."
Notes

1.
I.e., the range of powers a Buddha develops as a result of becoming a Buddha.
How is claiming his omniscience not an inconjecturable, but claiming he might not be is?
i think that both are problematic for me. largely because the machanics of superpowers, knowledge and information are not clear.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Sat Jun 23, 2018 6:00 am, edited 2 times in total.

justindesilva
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Re: Do you believe in the infallibility of the Buddha's word?

Post by justindesilva » Sat Jun 23, 2018 5:59 am

The unsurpassable qualities of lord budda is well explained as 9 noble qualities of lord Buddha in the gatha
Itipiso bhagava arahan samma ..............sambuddo.......
buddo bhagavathi. Takes a long space to describe these 9 radiant qualities of lord Buddha , but is well explained in the web
www.thabarwa.org-9 qualities of budda

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dylanj
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Re: Do you believe in the infallibility of the Buddha's word?

Post by dylanj » Sat Jun 23, 2018 6:11 am

team-buddha still winning :clap: but just by a bit :weep:
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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