This would mean you would have to get rid of all preconceived ideas, abandon all of your thinking. If you did this, the chances are you would not chase after any teachings or persons ever again.
Do you believe in the infallibility of the Buddha's word?
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Re: Do you believe in the infallibility of the Buddha's word?
Re: Do you believe in the infallibility of the Buddha's word?
No, I think that would not follow. We all start with some confidence in the Buddha (because of reading something that resonates with us for example). Because of this confidence we try to practice what is taught. This generates more confidence, which intensifies our practice, etc. In this way we slowly develop the path. Confidence alone does not work. Skepticism alone also leads nowhere. You need a balance.Saengnapha wrote: ↑Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:18 amThis would mean you would have to get rid of all preconceived ideas, abandon all of your thinking. If you did this, the chances are you would not chase after any teachings or persons ever again.
But I think we strayed quite off topic
Dry up what pertains to the past,
do not take up anything to come later.
If you will not grasp in the middle,
you will live at peace.—Snp.5.11,v.1099 (tr. Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi)
Whatever is will be was. —Ven. Ñānamoli, A Thinkers Notebook, §221
do not take up anything to come later.
If you will not grasp in the middle,
you will live at peace.—Snp.5.11,v.1099 (tr. Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi)
Whatever is will be was. —Ven. Ñānamoli, A Thinkers Notebook, §221
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Re: Do you believe in the infallibility of the Buddha's word?
Greetings Dylan,
What do I vote for if I think his word was infallible vis-a-vis the Dhamma and the four noble truths... but not necessarily infallible in other respects, such as geography, astronomy, history etc. which aren't directly connected to dukkha and nirodha?
Metta,
Paul.
What do I vote for if I think his word was infallible vis-a-vis the Dhamma and the four noble truths... but not necessarily infallible in other respects, such as geography, astronomy, history etc. which aren't directly connected to dukkha and nirodha?
Metta,
Paul.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Re: Do you believe in the infallibility of the Buddha's word?
vote no imoretrofuturist wrote: ↑Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:34 am Greetings Dylan,
What do I vote for if I think his word was infallible vis-a-vis the Dhamma and the four noble truths... but not necessarily infallible in other respects, such as geography, astronomy, history etc. which aren't directly connected to dukkha and nirodha?
Metta,
Paul.
Born, become, arisen – made, prepared, short-lived
Bonded by decay and death – a nest for sickness, perishable
Produced by seeking nutriment – not fit to take delight in
Departure from this is peaceful – beyond reasoning and enduring
Unborn, unarisen – free from sorrow and stain
Ceasing of all factors of suffering – stilling of all preparations is bliss
Bonded by decay and death – a nest for sickness, perishable
Produced by seeking nutriment – not fit to take delight in
Departure from this is peaceful – beyond reasoning and enduring
Unborn, unarisen – free from sorrow and stain
Ceasing of all factors of suffering – stilling of all preparations is bliss
Re: Do you believe in the infallibility of the Buddha's word?
And you posted the quotes after I posted for Ruud's comment. I thought Ruud's comment was thoughtful and relevant to the topic.dylanj wrote: ↑Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:18 amEach of the quotes involve the Buddha declaring his infallibility and/or the value of his followers believing in his infallibility.
What was the relevance of your quotes to my comment?
dylanj also asserted that I had the belief that the Buddha suggested we should not view him as infallible. Where did I do that?
Please see my first comment on this thread. What do you make of that?
Re: Do you believe in the infallibility of the Buddha's word?
Infallible is incapable of making mistakes or being wrong .
If in the case with regard to the Buddha's teaching or dhamma I think it is near flawless.
However , the method or the way He trained the disciples does not exempt from erroneous or is ever foolproof.
There is an instant when the Buddha directed his disciples to practise the aśubhā meditation which resulted in several suicide case .
If in the case with regard to the Buddha's teaching or dhamma I think it is near flawless.
However , the method or the way He trained the disciples does not exempt from erroneous or is ever foolproof.
There is an instant when the Buddha directed his disciples to practise the aśubhā meditation which resulted in several suicide case .
You always gain by giving
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Re: Do you believe in the infallibility of the Buddha's word?
It is since this incident that ananda thero was advised to follow anapana sati bhavana.( Vesali sutta)James Tan wrote: ↑Fri Jun 22, 2018 12:14 pm Infallible is incapable of making mistakes or being wrong .
If in the case with regard to the Buddha's teaching or dhamma I think it is near flawless.
However , the method or the way He trained the disciples does not exempt from erroneous or is ever foolproof.
There is an instant when the Buddha directed his disciples to practise the aśubhā meditation which resulted in several suicide case .
It is also mentioned that budda was not unaware of their suicides. But as they were with the asuba bhavana mentality with clarity of mind they were not born in hell but in a heavenly realm.
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Re: Do you believe in the infallibility of the Buddha's word?
I voted no because I think similarly to you. I think the Buddha could use technically inaccurate cultural knowledge to illustrate the dhamma.retrofuturist wrote: ↑Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:34 am Greetings Dylan,
What do I vote for if I think his word was infallible vis-a-vis the Dhamma and the four noble truths... but not necessarily infallible in other respects, such as geography, astronomy, history etc. which aren't directly connected to dukkha and nirodha?
Metta,
Paul.
Take the fire element:
There is no fire that digests food and drink. In fact, it isn’t even temperature that digests. If anything the digestive process is more related to the water/liquid element than to fire or heat.And what is the fire element? The fire element may be interior or exterior. And what is the interior fire element? Anything that’s fire, fiery, and organic that’s internal, pertaining to an individual. This includes that which warms, that which ages, that which heats you up when feverish, that which properly digests food and drink, or anything else that’s fire, fiery, and organic that’s internal, pertaining to an individual. This is called the interior fire element. The interior fire element and the exterior fire element are just the fire element. This should be truly seen with proper understanding like this: ‘This is not mine, I am not this, this is not my self.’ When you really see with proper understanding, you reject the fire element, detaching the mind from the fire element.
https://suttacentral.net/mn62/en/sujato
Everyone, take a look here at how digestion actually works:
https://www.iffgd.org/the-digestive-system.html
It seems that the commentaries and modern commentators, including EBT enthusiasts such as Ven Anālayo, try to interpret the elements as if they were experiential properties but this is wrong on a simple reading:
The understanding of the elements above is anachronistic to the suttas which state:Ven. Anālayo:
The next contemplation, concerned with the four elements of earth, water, fire, and wind, can be undertaken through a scanning similar to that employed for skin, flesh, and bones. One scan of the whole body can be undertaken to sense hardness as the manifestation of the earth element. This is particularly evident in the bones, although some degree of hardness is found throughout the body. The next scan would then be for wetness as a manifestation of the water element.11 Wetness also pervades the whole body, but is most easily discerned in the various liquids found in the fleshy parts of the body. The fire element in the form of warmth is the object of the next scan, in the sense of the different degrees of temperature in various parts of the body. This is particularly easily discernible at the skin level, although it is of course also a feature of the whole body. The final scan then takes up the wind element, representative of movement, which covers any motion of or in the body. The most prominent manifestation of motion during sitting meditation will probably be the breath.
http://media.dharmaseed.org/documents/E ... hana_2.pdf
The suttas are not talking about abstract notions, they’re talking about burps, farts, general intestinal gas, an inaccurate ancient idea about wind in the limbs that doesn’t exist, and breathing.And what is the air element? The air element may be interior or exterior. And what is the interior air element? Anything that’s wind, windy, and organic that’s internal, pertaining to an individual. This includes winds that go up or down, winds in the belly or the bowels, winds that flow through the limbs, in-breaths and out-breaths, or anything else that’s air, airy, and organic that’s internal, pertaining to an individual
If we think the Buddha has to be perfectly knowledgeable about anatomy, physics, geography, or what-have-you then we might as well pack our bags and go home because the meditation on the 4 elements is clearly a less accurate model of physical stuff than what we use now. But I’d say who cares, because the point the Buddha makes with the 4 elements is true, namely that our bodies and the external environment is made of the same stuff and if we see that deeply then we can realize the not-self nature of the body.
I’m not committed to the idea that the Buddha took ancient Ayurvedic ideas as absolute truth though, but it seems from the texts that he did at least use contemporary (to him) models to illustrate the dhamma. The Buddha says in a different context something that I think is applicable generally when he is using his own culture’s conceptual schemes to teach the dhamma:
That being said, I don’t mean that he didn’t teach rebirth or that it’s all a metaphor or anything like that. But I do think the texts strongly suggest that he used inaccurate physical, medical and geographical information to illustrate points here and there."Citta, these are the world's designations, the world's expressions, the world's ways of speaking, the world's descriptions, with which the Tathagata expresses himself but without grasping to them."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."
"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
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Re: Do you believe in the infallibility of the Buddha's word?
Why does it even matter? Either the Dhamma and Vinaya lead to liberation, or they don't. We find out which by practicing.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"
"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta
'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19
'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha
"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta
'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19
'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha
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Re: Do you believe in the infallibility of the Buddha's word?
The OP is a False dilemma where it is insisted that everything must be "either/or" or "black or white" when in fact another position could be the correct one (yes and no, as some posters here have noted).
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Re: Do you believe in the infallibility of the Buddha's word?
Infallability, heresy, slandering holy one...
Lots of highly Judeo-Christianized "Buddhism" going around here these days IMO.
Lots of highly Judeo-Christianized "Buddhism" going around here these days IMO.
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Re: Do you believe in the infallibility of the Buddha's word?
People import their preexisting interpretive frameworks without even realising...dharmacorps wrote: ↑Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:17 pm Infallability, heresy, slandering holy one...
Lots of highly Judeo-Christianized "Buddhism" going around here these days IMO.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"
"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta
'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19
'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha
"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta
'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19
'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha
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Re: Do you believe in the infallibility of the Buddha's word?
You said it. Our cultural baggage is heavier than we think.Pseudobabble wrote: ↑Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:32 pm People import their preexisting interpretive frameworks without even realising...
Re: Do you believe in the infallibility of the Buddha's word?
It's not a false dilemma, some people think he infallible in some ways & fallible in others but that is still on the side of fallibility as there's a clear implication in the term "infallible" of it being universal. If someone thinks the Buddha is even partially fallible clearly he cannot be said to be infallible.DNS wrote: ↑Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:25 pm The OP is a False dilemma where it is insisted that everything must be "either/or" or "black or white" when in fact another position could be the correct one (yes and no, as some posters here have noted).
Last edited by dylanj on Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Born, become, arisen – made, prepared, short-lived
Bonded by decay and death – a nest for sickness, perishable
Produced by seeking nutriment – not fit to take delight in
Departure from this is peaceful – beyond reasoning and enduring
Unborn, unarisen – free from sorrow and stain
Ceasing of all factors of suffering – stilling of all preparations is bliss
Bonded by decay and death – a nest for sickness, perishable
Produced by seeking nutriment – not fit to take delight in
Departure from this is peaceful – beyond reasoning and enduring
Unborn, unarisen – free from sorrow and stain
Ceasing of all factors of suffering – stilling of all preparations is bliss
Re: Do you believe in the infallibility of the Buddha's word?
Slandering the Buddha &/or any ariya isn't anything external it is in the suttas itself & taught to be an extremely heinous kamma.dharmacorps wrote: ↑Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:17 pm Infallability, heresy, slandering holy one...
Lots of highly Judeo-Christianized "Buddhism" going around here these days IMO.
As the suttas I quoted earlier show the Buddha certainly taught of his own infallibility.
I don't see anyone here speaking of "heresy"
Born, become, arisen – made, prepared, short-lived
Bonded by decay and death – a nest for sickness, perishable
Produced by seeking nutriment – not fit to take delight in
Departure from this is peaceful – beyond reasoning and enduring
Unborn, unarisen – free from sorrow and stain
Ceasing of all factors of suffering – stilling of all preparations is bliss
Bonded by decay and death – a nest for sickness, perishable
Produced by seeking nutriment – not fit to take delight in
Departure from this is peaceful – beyond reasoning and enduring
Unborn, unarisen – free from sorrow and stain
Ceasing of all factors of suffering – stilling of all preparations is bliss