Do you believe in the infallibility of the Buddha's word?

[dylanj]

Now as a man is like this or like that,
according as he acts and according as he behaves, so will he be;
a man of good acts will become good, a man of bad acts, bad;
he becomes pure by pure deeds, bad by bad deeds;

And here they say that a person consists of desires,
and as is his desire, so is his will;
and as is his will, so is his deed;
and whatever deed he does, that he will reap.

- Brihadaranyaka Upanishad (7th century BC)

cf

"Monks, for anyone who says, 'In whatever way a person makes kamma, that is how it is experienced,' there is no living of the holy life, there is no opportunity for the right ending of stress. But for anyone who says, 'When a person makes kamma to be felt in such & such a way, that is how its result is experienced,' there is the living of the holy life, there is the opportunity for the right ending of stress.

— Loṇakapalla Sutta, Aṅguttara Nikāya 3.99/

"'Kamma should be known. The cause by which kamma comes into play should be known. The diversity in kamma should be known. The result of kamma should be known. The cessation of kamma should be known. The path of practice for the cessation of kamma should be known.' Thus it has been said. In reference to what was it said?

"Intention, I tell you, is kamma. Intending, one does kamma by way of body, speech, & intellect.

"And what is the cause by which kamma comes into play? Contact is the cause by which kamma comes into play.

"And what is the diversity in kamma? There is kamma to be experienced in hell, kamma to be experienced in the realm of common animals, kamma to be experienced in the realm of the hungry shades, kamma to be experienced in the human world, kamma to be experienced in the world of the devas. This is called the diversity in kamma.

"And what is the result of kamma? The result of kamma is of three sorts, I tell you: that which arises right here & now, that which arises later [in this lifetime], and that which arises following that. This is called the result of kamma.

"And what is the cessation of kamma? From the cessation of contact is the cessation of kamma; and just this noble eightfold path — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration — is the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma.

"Now when a disciple of the noble ones discerns kamma in this way, the cause by which kamma comes into play in this way, the diversity of kamma in this way, the result of kamma in this way, the cessation of kamma in this way, & the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma in this way, then he discerns this penetrative holy life as the cessation of kamma.

"'Kamma should be known. The cause by which kamma comes into play... The diversity in kamma... The result of kamma... The cessation of kamma... The path of practice for the cessation of kamma should be known.' Thus it has been said, and in reference to this was it said."

— Nibbedhika Sutta, Aṅguttara Nikāya 6.63

[The brahman:] "Then, Master Gotama, is the one who acts someone other than the one who experiences?"

[The Buddha:] "[To say,] 'The one who acts is someone other than the one who experiences,' is the second extreme. Avoiding both of these extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma by means of the middle...

— Aññatara Sutta, Saṁyutta Nikāya 12.46

see also: SN 42.8. MN 101, where the Buddha differentiates his teaching of kamma from other contemporary teachings
& see MN 135 & 136

[Polar Bear]

If you believe the Buddha is infallible then you should read MN 47: Vīmaṃsaka Sutta- The Inquirer . It’s an awesome sutta.

Excerpt:

“Bhikkhus, a bhikkhu who is an inquirer, not knowing how to gauge another’s mind, should make an investigation of the Tathāgata in order to find out whether or not he is fully enlightened.”

Also check out Venerable Anālayo’s article The Scope of Free Inquiry - According to the Vīmaṃsaka-sutta and its Madhyama-āgama Parallel

Abstract:

The theme of the present article is the scope of free inquiry from the perspective of the Vīmaṃsaka-sutta of the Pāli Majjhima-nikāya and its coun- terpart in the Madhyama-āgama, preserved in Chinese translation. In these two specimens from the corpus of early Buddhist discourses, a pro- spective disciple is encouraged to investigate whether the Buddha’s claim to being a fully awakened teacher is justified. My presentation is based on an annotated translation of the Madhyama-āgama discourse, which is followed by a comparative study of the two versions and an evaluation of the significance of their presentation. My frame of reference in the pre- sent article is that of the thought-world of the early Buddhist discourses themselves, which for the most part can be considered representative of Buddhism in its pre-sectarian stage. This thought-world forms my point of departure in an attempt to illustrate the message these two parallel dis- courses convey on the theme of free inquiry in relation to one’s own teacher.

[salayatananirodha]

...

san • diṭ • ṭhi • ko a • kā • li • ko
directly visible, immediate,

e • hi • pas • si • ko o • pa • na • yi • ko
inviting one to come and see, applicable,

pac • cat • taṃ ve • di • tab • bo viñ • ñū • hi " ti.
to be personally experienced by the wise."

In this way the Dhamma is well expounded by the Blessed One

[Sam Vara]

...

san • diṭ • ṭhi • ko a • kā • li • ko
directly visible, immediate,

e • hi • pas • si • ko o • pa • na • yi • ko
inviting one to come and see, applicable,

pac • cat • taṃ ve • di • tab • bo viñ • ñū • hi " ti.
to be personally experienced by the wise."

In this way the Dhamma is well expounded by the Blessed One

This wouldn't answer the question as to why anyone would believe something based on the fact that the Buddha said it. These qualities of the Dhamma would be inimical to a belief in a flat earth.

[Bundokji]

I did not read the whole thread, but my view is that the Buddha is infallible when it comes to the true nature of existence. How this nature manifests itself is another story, open to various ways of interpretations.

[Mr Man]

Belief in the infallibility of the Buddha's word along with disbelief is impermanent, unsatisfactory and not-self.

"Any kind of form whatever...

"Any kind of feeling whatever...

"Any kind of perception whatever...

"Any kind of determination whatever...

"Any kind of consciousness whatever, whether past, future or presently arisen, whether gross or subtle, whether in oneself or external, whether inferior or superior, whether far or near must, with right understanding how it is, be regarded thus: 'This is not mine, this is not I, this is not my self.'

"Bhikkhus, when a noble follower who has heard (the truth) sees thus, he finds estrangement in form, he finds estrangement in feeling, he finds estrangement in perception, he finds estrangement in determinations, he finds estrangement in consciousness.

"When he finds estrangement, passion fades out. With the fading of passion, he is liberated. When liberated, there is knowledge that he is liberated. He understands: 'Birth is exhausted, the holy life has been lived out, what can be done is done, of this there is no more beyond.'"

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .nymo.html

[seeker242]

If you believe the Buddha is infallible then you should read MN 47: Vīmaṃsaka Sutta- The Inquirer . It’s an awesome sutta.

Excerpt:

“Bhikkhus, a bhikkhu who is an inquirer, not knowing how to gauge another’s mind, should make an investigation of the Tathāgata in order to find out whether or not he is fully enlightened.”

Abstract:

In these two specimens from the corpus of early Buddhist discourses, a pro- spective disciple is encouraged to investigate whether the Buddha’s claim to being a fully awakened teacher is justified.

And what if one does that investigation, for say 20 years or whatever, and comes to the conclusion that yes, it's justified. What then? Should one continue to doubt it? If so, why?

[Sam Vara]

If you believe the Buddha is infallible then you should read MN 47: Vīmaṃsaka Sutta- The Inquirer . It’s an awesome sutta.

Excerpt:

“Bhikkhus, a bhikkhu who is an inquirer, not knowing how to gauge another’s mind, should make an investigation of the Tathāgata in order to find out whether or not he is fully enlightened.”

Abstract:

In these two specimens from the corpus of early Buddhist discourses, a pro- spective disciple is encouraged to investigate whether the Buddha’s claim to being a fully awakened teacher is justified.

And what if one does that investigation, for say 20 years or whatever, and comes to the conclusion that yes, it's justified. What then? Should one continue to doubt it? If so, why?

If you found that a claim was justified, why would one bother to doubt it? At the point of justification, the prospective disciple becomes a disciple.

[Pseudobabble]

Belief in the infallibility of the Buddha's word along with disbelief is impermanent, unsatisfactory and not-self.

"Any kind of form whatever...

"Any kind of feeling whatever...

"Any kind of perception whatever...

"Any kind of determination whatever...

"Any kind of consciousness whatever, whether past, future or presently arisen, whether gross or subtle, whether in oneself or external, whether inferior or superior, whether far or near must, with right understanding how it is, be regarded thus: 'This is not mine, this is not I, this is not my self.'

"Bhikkhus, when a noble follower who has heard (the truth) sees thus, he finds estrangement in form, he finds estrangement in feeling, he finds estrangement in perception, he finds estrangement in determinations, he finds estrangement in consciousness.

"When he finds estrangement, passion fades out. With the fading of passion, he is liberated. When liberated, there is knowledge that he is liberated. He understands: 'Birth is exhausted, the holy life has been lived out, what can be done is done, of this there is no more beyond.'"

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .nymo.html

There's literally no point in even thinking about it. Either the practice works, or it doesn't.

[dylanj]

For a faithful disciple who is practicing to fathom the Teacher’s instructions, this is in line with the teaching:
Saddhassa, bhikkhave, sāvakassa satthusāsane pariyogāhiya vattato ayamanudhammo hoti:

‘The Exalted One is my Teacher, I am his disciple.
‘satthā bhagavā, sāvakohamasmi;

The Exalted One knows, I do not know.’
jānāti bhagavā, nāhaṃ jānāmī’ti.


MN 70

[form]

The Buddha taught us to investigate, cross examine and dun believe blindly. Yet, there are also threats in the suttas e.g. if u criticise...., having doubts...., either u wont progress or will end up in some terrible states.

There are many examples of the Buddha facing many human problems and considered realistic circumstances in his decision making just like one of us. Yet there are mystical accounts like he was a God like beings, one and only in the world, ground shake, sky change when he appeared, yet when he travelled around he walked like one of us despite of the amazing psychic powers e.g. flying.

So there must be some editing n additions even fabrications somewhere.

[dylanj]

The Buddha taught us to investigate, cross examine and dun believe blindly. Yet, there are also threats in the suttas e.g. if u criticise...., having doubts...., either u wont progress or will end up in some terrible states.

There are many examples of the Buddha facing many human problems and considered realistic circumstances in his decision making just like one of us. Yet there are mystical accounts like he was a God like beings, one and only in the world, ground shake, sky change when he appeared, yet when he travelled around he walked like one of us despite of the amazing psychic powers e.g. flying.

So there must be some editing n additions even fabrications somewhere.

no there mustn't be. the buddha said he is disgusted with psychic power. he avoided using it for the most part & with good reason.

[form]

The Buddha taught us to investigate, cross examine and dun believe blindly. Yet, there are also threats in the suttas e.g. if u criticise...., having doubts...., either u wont progress or will end up in some terrible states.

There are many examples of the Buddha facing many human problems and considered realistic circumstances in his decision making just like one of us. Yet there are mystical accounts like he was a God like beings, one and only in the world, ground shake, sky change when he appeared, yet when he travelled around he walked like one of us despite of the amazing psychic powers e.g. flying.

So there must be some editing n additions even fabrications somewhere.

no there mustn't be. the buddha said he is disgusted with psychic power. he avoided using it for the most part & with good reason.

Sure i respect your view. But why did moggallana use it all the time?

[dylanj]

The Buddha taught us to investigate, cross examine and dun believe blindly. Yet, there are also threats in the suttas e.g. if u criticise...., having doubts...., either u wont progress or will end up in some terrible states.

There are many examples of the Buddha facing many human problems and considered realistic circumstances in his decision making just like one of us. Yet there are mystical accounts like he was a God like beings, one and only in the world, ground shake, sky change when he appeared, yet when he travelled around he walked like one of us despite of the amazing psychic powers e.g. flying.

So there must be some editing n additions even fabrications somewhere.

no there mustn't be. the buddha said he is disgusted with psychic power. he avoided using it for the most part & with good reason.

Sure i respect your view. But why did moggallana use it all the time?

he was the most skilled in it of the buddha's disciples.

to be clear, the buddha said he was disgusted with psychic power because of skeptics & those who would attribute it to meaningless things like magic charms. within the context of the sangha this is not a problem & there is sometimes use for these powers.