Do you believe in the infallibility of the Buddha's word?

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Do you believe in the infallibility of the Buddha's word?

Yes
17
57%
No
13
43%
 
Total votes: 30

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dylanj
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Do you believe in the infallibility of the Buddha's word?

Post by dylanj » Fri Jun 22, 2018 6:23 am

Of course what's relevant is not the texts but whatever it is the Buddha said in his life, from the moment of his awakening to the moment of his death.
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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JamesTheGiant
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Re: Do you believe in the infallibility of the Buddha's word?

Post by JamesTheGiant » Fri Jun 22, 2018 6:40 am

Yes, BUT the suttas have been changed, edited, recompiled, retconned, deleted, added, invented, and mucked around with many many times. So it's all dodgy. You just have to use your common sense, and a bit of critical analysis.

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Sam Vara
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Re: Do you believe in the infallibility of the Buddha's word?

Post by Sam Vara » Fri Jun 22, 2018 6:43 am

dylanj wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 6:23 am
Of course what's relevant is not the texts but whatever it is the Buddha said in his life, from the moment of his awakening to the moment of his death.
Apart from the texts, where can we access whatever it is that the Buddha said in his life?

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dylanj
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Re: Do you believe in the infallibility of the Buddha's word?

Post by dylanj » Fri Jun 22, 2018 6:44 am

Sam Vara wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 6:43 am
dylanj wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 6:23 am
Of course what's relevant is not the texts but whatever it is the Buddha said in his life, from the moment of his awakening to the moment of his death.
Apart from the texts, where can we access whatever it is that the Buddha said in his life?
I don't know. I don't think that matters here, as one can view the texts as fallible insofar as they don't reflect what the Buddha said while still having conviction that whatever he did say was infallible. This would depend on having a rough degree of faith in the texts by & large, though, albeit not altogether.
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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Sam Vara
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Re: Do you believe in the infallibility of the Buddha's word?

Post by Sam Vara » Fri Jun 22, 2018 6:50 am

dylanj wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 6:44 am
Sam Vara wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 6:43 am
dylanj wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 6:23 am
Of course what's relevant is not the texts but whatever it is the Buddha said in his life, from the moment of his awakening to the moment of his death.
Apart from the texts, where can we access whatever it is that the Buddha said in his life?
I don't know. I don't think that matters here, as one can view the texts as fallible insofar as they don't reflect what the Buddha said while still having conviction that whatever he did say was infallible. This would depend on having a rough degree of faith in the texts by & large, though, albeit not altogether.
It's an interesting problem. As the only way to access anything that the Buddha said is via the texts, whatever in the texts led to a belief in infallibility could be something he didn't say, or wasn't true.

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salayatananirodha
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Re: Do you believe in the infallibility of the Buddha's word?

Post by salayatananirodha » Fri Jun 22, 2018 6:50 am

What I know is that you can't get along as a Buddhist if you insist that the Buddha didn't teach from direct knowledge or that he failed to explain important doctrinal matters or fabricated anything as a sort of 'skillful means'. You practice for direct knowledge, not from (well, usually). My vote would be yes, but I haven't attained such insight, such confidence. But the promise given to us is well worth constantly trying to develop restraint. One has nothing to lose but suffering!
16. 'In what has the world originated?' — so said the Yakkha Hemavata, — 'with what is the world intimate? by what is the world afflicted, after having grasped at what?' (167)

17. 'In six the world has originated, O Hemavata,' — so said Bhagavat, — 'with six it is intimate, by six the world is afflicted, after having grasped at six.' (168)

- Hemavatasutta


links:
https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/index.htm
http://thaiforestwisdom.org/canonical-texts/
http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html

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Mr Man
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Re: Do you believe in the infallibility of the Buddha's word?

Post by Mr Man » Fri Jun 22, 2018 6:53 am

Personally I do not think is an important question.

I think it might even be a counterproductive question?

Belief changes.

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salayatananirodha
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Re: Do you believe in the infallibility of the Buddha's word?

Post by salayatananirodha » Fri Jun 22, 2018 6:55 am

JamesTheGiant wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 6:40 am
Yes, BUT the suttas have been changed, edited, recompiled, retconned, deleted, added, invented, and mucked around with many many times. So it's all dodgy. You just have to use your common sense, and a bit of critical analysis.
I prefer to use my imagination here. If a perfect teacher arose in the world, would he teach in such a way that his meaning is not easily confused and that his followers would be deeply compelled to learn and display? If you look at it like a chance game of telephone it doesn't inspire confidence, but you have early texts that match which are apparently descended from distinctly separate oral traditions. Furthermore, when has common sense led to the extinction of craving or clinging? Common sense has led to war, conflict and the total degeneration of morality and family. I don't trust my innate sense of reason as a non-arahant, I suggest you apply this favored skepticism to your own. :soap:
16. 'In what has the world originated?' — so said the Yakkha Hemavata, — 'with what is the world intimate? by what is the world afflicted, after having grasped at what?' (167)

17. 'In six the world has originated, O Hemavata,' — so said Bhagavat, — 'with six it is intimate, by six the world is afflicted, after having grasped at six.' (168)

- Hemavatasutta


links:
https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/index.htm
http://thaiforestwisdom.org/canonical-texts/
http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html

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dylanj
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Re: Do you believe in the infallibility of the Buddha's word?

Post by dylanj » Fri Jun 22, 2018 6:58 am

salayatananirodha wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 6:55 am
JamesTheGiant wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 6:40 am
Yes, BUT the suttas have been changed, edited, recompiled, retconned, deleted, added, invented, and mucked around with many many times. So it's all dodgy. You just have to use your common sense, and a bit of critical analysis.
I prefer to use my imagination here. If a perfect teacher arose in the world, would he teach in such a way that his meaning is not easily confused and that his followers would be deeply compelled to learn and display? If you look at it like a chance game of telephone it doesn't inspire confidence, but you have early texts that match which are apparently descended from distinctly separate oral traditions. Furthermore, when has common sense led to the extinction of craving or clinging? Common sense has led to war, conflict and the total degeneration of morality and family. I don't trust my innate sense of reason as a non-arahant, I suggest you apply this favored skepticism to your own. :soap:
:goodpost: :anjali: :clap:
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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JamesTheGiant
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Re: Do you believe in the infallibility of the Buddha's word?

Post by JamesTheGiant » Fri Jun 22, 2018 7:02 am

salayatananirodha wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 6:55 am
when has common sense led to the extinction of craving or clinging? Common sense has led to war, conflict and the total degeneration of morality and family. I don't trust my innate sense of reason as a non-arahant, I suggest you apply this favored skepticism to your own. :soap:
Yes, I agree with you. But I meant we must think carefully about which bits of the suttas are genuine, and which have been made up or changed, and not just swallow everything like Christian blind-faith fundamentalists.

SarathW
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Re: Do you believe in the infallibility of the Buddha's word?

Post by SarathW » Fri Jun 22, 2018 7:28 am

The only way to test the infallibility of the Buddha's word is to practice his teaching.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Wizard in the Forest
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Re: Do you believe in the infallibility of the Buddha's word?

Post by Wizard in the Forest » Fri Jun 22, 2018 7:30 am

The easiest Categorical answer.

YES.
"One is not born a woman, but becomes one."- Simone de Beauvoir

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dylanj
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Re: Do you believe in the infallibility of the Buddha's word?

Post by dylanj » Fri Jun 22, 2018 7:30 am

SarathW wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 7:28 am
The only way to test the infallibility of the Buddha's word is to practice his teaching.
:goodpost:
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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Wizard in the Forest
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Re: Do you believe in the infallibility of the Buddha's word?

Post by Wizard in the Forest » Fri Jun 22, 2018 7:34 am

Svākkhāto bhagavatā dhammo: sandiṭṭhiko akāliko ehipassiko opaneyyiko paccattaṃ veditabbo viññūhī ti.
The Dhamma is well declared by the Blessed One: visible here and now, immediate, inviting to come and see, effective, to be individually ascertained by the wise.

The best way to find out, Sarath speaks truth.

:anjali:
"One is not born a woman, but becomes one."- Simone de Beauvoir

Ruud
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Re: Do you believe in the infallibility of the Buddha's word?

Post by Ruud » Fri Jun 22, 2018 7:35 am

I think the interesting question related to the OP would be whether the Buddha (for as much as we know him through our 'fallible' scriptures) would want us to take him as infallible. Based on for example the Kalama Sutta, I believe the answer to that is no. We can learn extremely much from the Buddha, but in the end it comes down to our confidence/faith that eventually leads to the 'knowing for oneself' that turns hearsay into experienced truth. So as long as our seeing him as infallible helps our confidence, great, but always in a spirit of investigation what is being said. If not you are not careful, infallibility can very easily leads to biblethumping
Dry up what pertains to the past,
do not take up anything to come later.
If you will not grasp in the middle,
you will live at peace.
—Snp.5.11,v.1099 (tr. Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi)

Whatever is will be was. —Ven. Ñānamoli, A Thinkers Notebook, §221

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