Slandering buddha

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budo
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Re: Slandering buddha

Post by budo » Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:34 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:31 pm
budo wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:30 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:28 pm

you heard this from his lips or what
Nope, from reading a sutta from the vinaya pitaka last week.
so you don't know if he actually said it?
I assume that the pali canon is authentic and therefore he said it. Just like I assume the writings of Einstein are also authentic and he said/believed in those things.

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Re: Slandering buddha

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:36 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:32 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:18 pm
yes but i am available for questioning on the doctrinal manners and scrutinious comparison to the Tipitaka and the commentaries. After such scrutiny there will no longer be any sort of equation of me with these heretics and if they are subjected to the same thorough scrutiny then i am sure that who is who will be quite evident. Contrary to popular belief there is such a thing as Dhamma examination and doctrinal scrutiny based on textual authority.
Again, my guess is that the cancerous elements and Wrong-View merchants would all say the same thing.
they certainly would say so and it would be true except that i would be the one for the most part well alligned and they would have bunch of inconsistencies on important issues. And if they say the same thing then the difference there is them lying and easily proven wrong if such test was undertaken.

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Re: Slandering buddha

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:38 pm

budo wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:34 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:31 pm
budo wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:30 pm


Nope, from reading a sutta from the vinaya pitaka last week.
so you don't know if he actually said it?
I assume that the pali canon is authentic and therefore he said it. Just like I assume the writings of Einstein are also authentic and he said/believed in those things.
The Sutta usually start with "Thus have i heard" for a reason. Assuming that someone said something is not the same as paraphrasing and saying "The Tathagata said X".

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Re: Slandering buddha

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:45 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 3:51 pm
"Monks, these two slander the Tathagata. Which two? He who explains what was not said or spoken by the Tathagata as said or spoken by the Tathagata. And he who explains what was said or spoken by the Tathagata as not said or spoken by the Tathagata. These are two who slander the Tathagata."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

The pali word is abbhacikkhati, and can also be rendered less legalistically as "misrepresents".
Woodward (Gradual Sayings, Volume I, page 54) translates this same passage as:
Monks, these two misrepresent the Tathāgata. What two?

He who proclaims, as utterances on the Tathāgata, what he never said or uttered, and he who denies what was said or uttered by the Tathāgata. These are the two.

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Re: Slandering buddha

Post by Sam Vara » Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:49 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:36 pm
they certainly would say so and it would be true except that i would be the one for the most part well alligned and they would have bunch of inconsistencies on important issues. And if they say the same thing then the difference there is them lying and easily proven wrong if such test was undertaken.
[/quote]

Again, I can imagine them making similar predictions about what would happen.

("Yes, but their predictions are wrong, and mine are right!")

I can imagine them also saying that, rightviewftw...

("Yes, but I'm different because I'm right, I tell you!")

..Repeat ad infinitum. It seems that your desire to ban others on the grounds of heresy and slander (albeit with commendably increased stringency of criteria) is based on your feeling of certainty that you are right on such matters.

It's not exactly unexpected, but thanks for the elucidation!

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budo
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Re: Slandering buddha

Post by budo » Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:50 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:38 pm
budo wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:34 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:31 pm


so you don't know if he actually said it?
I assume that the pali canon is authentic and therefore he said it. Just like I assume the writings of Einstein are also authentic and he said/believed in those things.
The Sutta usually start with "Thus have i heard" for a reason. Assuming that someone said something is not the same as paraphrasing and saying "The Tathagata said X".
And? Look at your own post history, you reference what the Buddha said countless times. It seems like you're looking for reasons to quarrel with people (just like in your forum Avatar) instead of giving them the benefit of doubt and trying to understand their message.. perhaps that's a reflection of your own state of mind rather than the intention of others.

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Sam Vara
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Re: Slandering buddha

Post by Sam Vara » Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:53 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:45 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 3:51 pm
"Monks, these two slander the Tathagata. Which two? He who explains what was not said or spoken by the Tathagata as said or spoken by the Tathagata. And he who explains what was said or spoken by the Tathagata as not said or spoken by the Tathagata. These are two who slander the Tathagata."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

The pali word is abbhacikkhati, and can also be rendered less legalistically as "misrepresents".
Woodward (Gradual Sayings, Volume I, page 54) translates this same passage as:
Monks, these two misrepresent the Tathāgata. What two?

He who proclaims, as utterances on the Tathāgata, what he never said or uttered, and he who denies what was said or uttered by the Tathāgata. These are the two.
Yes, thanks. That's pretty much exactly how Sujato renders it, isn't it? He (Woodward) just avoids the one-to-one translation of abbhacikkhati. Maybe not so literal, but equally intelligible.

rightviewftw
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Re: Slandering buddha

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:55 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:49 pm


Again, I can imagine them making similar predictions about what would happen.

("Yes, but their predictions are wrong, and mine are right!")

I can imagine them also saying that, rightviewftw...

("Yes, but I'm different because I'm right, I tell you!")

..Repeat ad infinitum. It seems that your desire to ban others on the grounds of heresy and slander (albeit with commendably increased stringency of criteria) is based on your feeling of certainty that you are right on such matters.

It's not exactly unexpected, but thanks for the elucidation!
Are you actually denying that doctrinal allignment can be established and outlined by the means of formal testing?
My desire to ban is based on wanting the truth to be protected, my own certainty has nothing to do with it. I never even proposed that i should be the one doing it so my own views are unrelated.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Slandering buddha

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:57 pm

budo wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:50 pm
Look at your own post history, you reference what the Buddha said countless times. It seems like you're looking for reasons to quarrel with people (just like in your forum Avatar) instead of giving them the benefit of doubt and trying to understand their message.. perhaps that's a reflection of your own state of mind rather than the intention of others.
where did i say "Buddha said"? i would be surprised if you can find a single instance let alone "countless" or even multiple... I just pointed out that it is bad to put words in the Tathagatas mouth and i am sorry you perceive any criticism as a quarrel.

Also this thread is about slandering the Tathagata, so it is most natural that it would be pointed out.

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budo
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Re: Slandering buddha

Post by budo » Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:01 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:57 pm
budo wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:50 pm
Look at your own post history, you reference what the Buddha said countless times. It seems like you're looking for reasons to quarrel with people (just like in your forum Avatar) instead of giving them the benefit of doubt and trying to understand their message.. perhaps that's a reflection of your own state of mind rather than the intention of others.
where did i say "Buddha said"? I just pointed out that it is bad to put words in the Tathagatas mouth and i am sorry you perceive any criticism as a quarrel.
Do you think nitpicking about semantics and putting people under a microscope is not being quarrelsome?

And yes you do, just look at your own post history and you'll see, I'm not one to rub people's face in their own feces so you can take a look for yourself.

rightviewftw
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Re: Slandering buddha

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:05 pm

budo wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:01 pm
And yes you do, just look at your own post history and you'll see, I'm not one to rub people's face in their own feces so you can take a look for yourself.
I know the manner in which i post and i make conscious effort not to do this exact bs that you are accusing me of. So burden of proof is on you..
Do you think nitpicking about semantics and putting people under a microscope is not being quarrelsome?
In this case not really because this thread is about Slandering the Tathagata...

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Sam Vara
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Re: Slandering buddha

Post by Sam Vara » Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:20 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:55 pm

Are you actually denying that doctrinal allignment can be established and outlined by the means formal testing?
Not at all. In many cases, it can be seen whether views are in line with doctrine. My point is that in many other cases, it can't. These are the "hard cases" that divide sincere, intelligent and well-informed practitioners and scholars in long-running and inconclusive debates, on this forum and elsewhere. What the Buddha said, what he meant by it, and how much weight we ought to put on it, are often dependent on modern translations and interpretations. It is because of these "hard cases" that I am against the enforcement of orthodoxy by any means other than open and civil conversation.
My desire to ban is based on wanting the truth to be protected, my own certainty has nothing to do with it.
The same two points that I have been repeating throughout this thread.

1) If you want to ban to protect the truth, then you must first be certain that you know what the truth is. Unless, of course, you are prepared to ban on the basis of opinion.

2) I think the truth is protected by demonstrating the falsehood of opinions which are false. Banning such opinions demonstrates nothing other than our reluctance to engage with them.

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budo
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Re: Slandering buddha

Post by budo » Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:23 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:05 pm
budo wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:01 pm
And yes you do, just look at your own post history and you'll see, I'm not one to rub people's face in their own feces so you can take a look for yourself.
I know the manner in which i post and i make conscious effort not to do this exact bs that you are accusing me of. So burden of proof is on you..
Do you think nitpicking about semantics and putting people under a microscope is not being quarrelsome?
In this case not really because this thread is about Slandering the Tathagata...
The search function is lagging out for me now, go here and click on page 3 and 4 and you should see a few recent posts where you refer to what the Buddha said. search.php?keywords=buddha+said&terms=a ... mit=Search

rightviewftw
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Re: Slandering buddha

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:29 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:20 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:55 pm

Are you actually denying that doctrinal allignment can be established and outlined by the means formal testing?
Not at all. In many cases, it can be seen whether views are in line with doctrine. My point is that in many other cases, it can't. These are the "hard cases" that divide sincere, intelligent and well-informed practitioners and scholars in long-running and inconclusive debates, on this forum and elsewhere. What the Buddha said, what he meant by it, and how much weight we ought to put on it, are often dependent on modern translations and interpretations. It is because of these "hard cases" that I am against the enforcement of orthodoxy by any means other than open and civil conversation.
I am not talking about the sincere, intelligent and well-informed. I am talking about the eel-wriggler who will ignore evidence, make wildly irrational claims, put himself in undefensible position and still act dismissive and pretend like he has won every debate.

I know full well that we can't establish some logic police to oversee every debate...

rightviewftw
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Re: Slandering buddha

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:39 pm

budo wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:23 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:05 pm
budo wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:01 pm
And yes you do, just look at your own post history and you'll see, I'm not one to rub people's face in their own feces so you can take a look for yourself.
I know the manner in which i post and i make conscious effort not to do this exact bs that you are accusing me of. So burden of proof is on you..
Do you think nitpicking about semantics and putting people under a microscope is not being quarrelsome?
In this case not really because this thread is about Slandering the Tathagata...
The search function is lagging out for me now, go here and click on page 3 and 4 and you should see a few recent posts where you refer to what the Buddha said. search.php?keywords=buddha+said&terms=a ... mit=Search
You are probably looking at me quoting someone else or posting a Sutta excerpt.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Thu Jun 21, 2018 11:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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