Slandering buddha

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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rightviewftw
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Re: Slandering buddha

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Jun 23, 2018 6:45 am

Sam Vara wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 6:43 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 6:39 am
It also gave me clarity in regards to what kind of people this forum consists of and how i can better adjust my own practice.
Dare I ask what those adjustments are? Redoubled vigour to expel the worthless trash types, or a move towards equanimity?
As i said i will stop participating under the current ToS. What good came out of your posts in last couple days?

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Sam Vara
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Re: Slandering buddha

Post by Sam Vara » Sat Jun 23, 2018 6:52 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 6:45 am
Sam Vara wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 6:43 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 6:39 am
It also gave me clarity in regards to what kind of people this forum consists of and how i can better adjust my own practice.
Dare I ask what those adjustments are? Redoubled vigour to expel the worthless trash types, or a move towards equanimity?
As i said i will stop participating under the current ToS. What good came out of your posts in last couple days?
Ah, the specific results of kamma: an unconjecturable, so I'm told. I'm not tired, disappointed, or annoyed, though, if that counts.

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rightviewftw
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Re: Slandering buddha

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Jun 23, 2018 6:59 am

Sam Vara wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 6:52 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 6:45 am
Sam Vara wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 6:43 am


Dare I ask what those adjustments are? Redoubled vigour to expel the worthless trash types, or a move towards equanimity?
As i said i will stop participating under the current ToS. What good came out of your posts in last couple days?
Ah, the specific results of kamma: an unconjecturable, so I'm told. I'm not tired, disappointed, or annoyed, though, if that counts.
good for you :smile:

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Pseudobabble
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Re: Slandering buddha

Post by Pseudobabble » Sat Jun 23, 2018 7:55 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 6:45 am
Sam Vara wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 6:43 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 6:39 am
It also gave me clarity in regards to what kind of people this forum consists of and how i can better adjust my own practice.
Dare I ask what those adjustments are? Redoubled vigour to expel the worthless trash types, or a move towards equanimity?
As i said i will stop participating under the current ToS. What good came out of your posts in last couple days?

Nobody wants you to leave. People would just prefer it if you could stop hyperbolising, and attempting to conform other people's behaviour to your own strict interpretations. And insulting people at large, that too.

You've asserted a lot of things, and been very rude towards certain unspecified people (worthless, trash, cancer), and then you try to hide behind sutta quotes, as though some text on a page could justify this fanatical viciousness.

I'm not interested in getting into a quote war with you, but here are some things to consider, as you are someone who takes the suttas very seriously:
SN45.8 wrote:"And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech."
AN5.198 wrote: "Monks, a statement endowed with five factors is well-spoken, not ill-spoken. It is blameless & unfaulted by knowledgeable people. Which five?

"It is spoken at the right time. It is spoken in truth. It is spoken affectionately. It is spoken beneficially. It is spoken with a mind of good-will."
Thag21 wrote: "One should speak only that word by which one would not torment oneself nor harm others. That word is indeed well spoken.

"One should speak only pleasant words, words which are acceptable (to others). What one speaks without bringing evils to others is pleasant."
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha

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budo
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Re: Slandering buddha

Post by budo » Sat Jun 23, 2018 9:55 am

Last fall when I switched over from jhanas to Mahasi vipassana I also became angry and rude to others, I am not blaming mahasi/vipassana. But I now realize the importantance of the threefold training, of sila/metta, and samadhi/jhanas.

The mind needs a place to rest and refresh, if you skip straight to the panna training without sila and samadhi then you will become unbearable.

It took me a while to learn what the Buddha learned from the ascetics before returning to the jhanas: you cannot beat pain with pain. You cannot stop fire with fire.

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rightviewftw
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Re: Slandering buddha

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Jul 03, 2018 3:22 pm

Pseudobabble wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 7:55 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 6:45 am
Sam Vara wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 6:43 am


Dare I ask what those adjustments are? Redoubled vigour to expel the worthless trash types, or a move towards equanimity?
As i said i will stop participating under the current ToS. What good came out of your posts in last couple days?

Nobody wants you to leave. People would just prefer it if you could stop hyperbolising, and attempting to conform other people's behaviour to your own strict interpretations. And insulting people at large, that too.

You've asserted a lot of things, and been very rude towards certain unspecified people (worthless, trash, cancer), and then you try to hide behind sutta quotes, as though some text on a page could justify this fanatical viciousness.

I'm not interested in getting into a quote war with you, but here are some things to consider, as you are someone who takes the suttas very seriously:
SN45.8 wrote:"And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech."
AN5.198 wrote: "Monks, a statement endowed with five factors is well-spoken, not ill-spoken. It is blameless & unfaulted by knowledgeable people. Which five?

"It is spoken at the right time. It is spoken in truth. It is spoken affectionately. It is spoken beneficially. It is spoken with a mind of good-will."
Thag21 wrote: "One should speak only that word by which one would not torment oneself nor harm others. That word is indeed well spoken.

"One should speak only pleasant words, words which are acceptable (to others). What one speaks without bringing evils to others is pleasant."
Given that i am not allowed to call people out by name i pretty much have to generalize. I would be happy to call them out by name.
As for harsh speech, consider this;
Then Venerable Sāriputta thought: “Even in front of the Buddha Venerable Udāyī disagrees with me three times, and not one mendicant agrees with me. I’d better stay silent.” Then Sāriputta fell silent.

Then the Buddha said to Venerable Udāyī: “But Udāyī, do you believe in a mind-made body?” “Those gods, sir, who are formless, made of perception.” “Udāyī, what has an incompetent fool like you got to say? How on earth could you imagine you’ve got something worth saying!”

Then the Buddha said to Venerable Ānanda: “Ānanda! There’s a senior mendicant being harassed, and you just watch it happening. Don’t you have any compassion for a senior mendicant who is being harassed?”
But if Gotama the contemplative, thus asked, answers, 'The Tathagata would not say words that are unendearing & disagreeable to others,' then you should say, 'Then how, lord, did you say of Devadatta that "Devadatta is headed for destitution, Devadatta is headed for hell, Devadatta will boil for an eon, Devadatta is incurable"? For Devadatta was upset & disgruntled at those words of yours.' When Gotama the contemplative is asked this two-pronged question by you, he won't be able to swallow it down or spit it up. Just as if a two-horned chestnut[1] were stuck in a man's throat: he would not be able to swallow it down or spit it up.
...
"Just yesterday, lord, I went to Nigantha Nataputta and... he said to me...'Come now, prince. Go to Gotama the contemplative and on arrival say this: "Lord, would the Tathagata say words that are unendearing & disagreeable to others?"... Just as if a two-horned chestnut were stuck in a man's throat: he would not be able to swallow it down or spit it up. In the same way, when Gotama the contemplative is asked this two-pronged question by you, he won't be able to swallow it down or spit it up.'"

Now at that time a baby boy was lying face-up on the prince's lap. So the Blessed One said to the prince, "What do you think, prince: If this young boy, through your own negligence or that of the nurse, were to take a stick or a piece of gravel into its mouth, what would you do?"
"I would take it out, lord. If I couldn't get it out right away, then holding its head in my left hand and crooking a finger of my right, I would take it out, even if it meant drawing blood. Why is that? Because I have sympathy for the young boy."

"In the same way, prince:

[1] In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be unfactual, untrue, unbeneficial (or: not connected with the goal), unendearing & disagreeable to others, he does not say them.

[2] In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, unbeneficial, unendearing & disagreeable to others, he does not say them.

[3] In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, beneficial, but unendearing & disagreeable to others, he has a sense of the proper time for saying them.

[4] In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be unfactual, untrue, unbeneficial, but endearing & agreeable to others, he does not say them.

[5] In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, unbeneficial, but endearing & agreeable to others, he does not say them.

[6] In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, beneficial, and endearing & agreeable to others, he has a sense of the proper time for saying them. Why is that? Because the Tathagata has sympathy for living beings."
the world is not all sunshine and rainbows and the Dhamma is not some sort of kumbaya say only nice things religion
"The practice of Dhamma, [1] the practice of continence, [2] mastery of this is said to be best if a person has gone forth from home to the homeless life. But if he is garrulous and, like a brute, delights in hurting others, his life is evil and his impurity increases.

"A quarrelsome bhikkhu shrouded by delusion, does not comprehend the Dhamma taught by the Awakened One when it is revealed. Annoying those practiced in meditation, being led by ignorance, he is not aware that his defiled path leads to Niraya-hell. Falling headlong, passing from womb to womb, from darkness to (greater) darkness, such a bhikkhu undergoes suffering hereafter for certain.

"As a cesspool filled over a number of years is difficult to clean, similarly, whoever is full of impurity is difficult to make pure. Whoever you know to be such, bhikkhus, bent on worldliness, having wrong desires, wrong thoughts, wrong behavior and resort, being completely united avoid him, sweep him out like dirt, remove him like rubbish. Winnow like chaff the non-recluses. Having ejected those of wrong desires, of wrong behavior and resort, be pure and mindful, dwelling with those who are pure. Being united and prudent you will make an end to suffering."
sometimes harsh words are for their own benefit.
“Bhante, the night has advanced still further; the last watch has passed; dawn has arrived and a rosy tint has appeared on the horizon; the Saṅgha of bhikkhus has been sitting for a long time. Let the Blessed One recite the Pātimokkha to the bhikkhus.”

“This assembly, Ānanda, is impure.”

Then it occurred to the Venerable Mahāmoggallāna: “What person was the Blessed One referring to when he said: ‘This assembly, Ānanda, is impure’?” Then the Venerable Mahāmoggallāna fixed his attention on the entire Saṅgha of bhikkhus, encompassing their minds with his own mind. He then saw that person sitting in the midst of the Saṅgha of bhikkhus: one who was immoral, of bad character, impure, of suspect behavior, secretive in his actions, not an ascetic though claiming to be one, not a celibate though claiming to be one, inwardly rotten, corrupt, depraved. Having seen him, he rose from his seat, went up to that person, and said to him: “Get up, friend. The Blessed One has seen you. You cannot live in communion with the bhikkhus.” When this was said, that person remained silent.

A second time … A third time the Venerable Mahāmoggallāna said to that person:
“Get up, friend. The Blessed One has seen you. You cannot live in communion with the bhikkhus.” A third time that person remained silent.

Then the Venerable Mahāmoggallāna grabbed that person by the arm, evicted him through the outer gatehouse, and bolted the door. Then he returned to the Blessed One and said to him: “I have evicted that person, Bhante. The assembly is pure. Let the Blessed One recite the Pātimokkha to the bhikkhus.”
Sometimes even physically the impure people have to be ejected.

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JamesTheGiant
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Re: Slandering buddha

Post by JamesTheGiant » Tue Jul 03, 2018 8:33 pm

Pseudobabble wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 7:55 am
SN45.8 wrote:"And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech."

AN5.198 wrote: "Monks, a statement endowed with five factors is well-spoken, not ill-spoken. It is blameless & unfaulted by knowledgeable people. Which five?

"It is spoken at the right time. It is spoken in truth. It is spoken affectionately. It is spoken beneficially. It is spoken with a mind of good-will."

Thag21 wrote: "One should speak only that word by which one would not torment oneself nor harm others. That word is indeed well spoken.

"One should speak only pleasant words, words which are acceptable (to others). What one speaks without bringing evils to others is pleasant."

Good post! Unfortunately the fanatics don't attend to these passages, and instead find excuses for why they're speaking harshly.

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mikenz66
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Re: Slandering buddha

Post by mikenz66 » Tue Jul 03, 2018 10:45 pm

JamesTheGiant wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 8:33 pm
Good post! Unfortunately the fanatics don't attend to these passages, and instead find excuses for why they're speaking harshly.
It would be great if all members took those quotes seriously. Since none of us are Buddha's, I doubt that modelling one's speech on those occasions where the Buddha appeared to speak harshly is useful. I also don't see any support for the excuse that if someone gets upset by harsh speech then it's their fault for not being equanimous enough.

:heart:
Mike

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