Slandering buddha

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
rightviewftw
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Re: Slandering buddha

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Jun 23, 2018 4:48 am

Wizard in the Forest wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 4:39 am
People of wrong view should not be called worthless, yes. They should be slowly exposed to the right view, and once they practice, they slowly come to know what kind of wrong view they have, and then they can let it go. That requires meditation and we can't meditate for them, nor should we try to bully them into right view. Many are making sincere efforts to practice. Encourage them, don't put them down.

What you hope to benefit by speaking thusly? It doesn't endear them to what is actually Buddha Vacana, and that's the worst thing you could do to an aspirant.
I did not call people of wrong view worthless, i said heretics and people fixed in wrong views who misrepresent the Dhamma. Some people will not endear the Buddha Vacana no matter what you do.
"Come now, prince. Go to Gotama the contemplative and on arrival say this: 'Lord, would the Tathagata say words that are unendearing & disagreeable to others?' If Gotama the contemplative, thus asked, answers, 'The Tathagata would say words that are unendearing & disagreeable to others,' then you should say, 'Then how is there any difference between you, lord, and run-of-the-mill people? For even run-of-the-mill people say words that are unendearing & disagreeable to others.' But if Gotama the contemplative, thus asked, answers, 'The Tathagata would not say words that are unendearing & disagreeable to others,' then you should say, 'Then how, lord, did you say of Devadatta that "Devadatta is headed for destitution, Devadatta is headed for hell, Devadatta will boil for an eon, Devadatta is incurable"? For Devadatta was upset & disgruntled at those words of yours.'
Last edited by rightviewftw on Sat Jun 23, 2018 4:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

rightviewftw
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Re: Slandering buddha

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Jun 23, 2018 4:48 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 4:42 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 4:39 am
Honestly I am not sure but under the current circumstances i was inclined to do it. Not because i was angry but because i saw it fit and tactically viable.
Did it have a beneficial effect?

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Mike
remains to be seen, it certainly got some attention.

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mikenz66
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Re: Slandering buddha

Post by mikenz66 » Sat Jun 23, 2018 4:49 am

The Buddha did, famously, criticise Sāti, son of a fisherman, in MN 38: https://suttacentral.net/mn38/en/bodhi
When this was said, the bhikkhu Sāti, son of a fisherman, sat silent, dismayed, with shoulders drooping and head down, glum, and without response. Then, knowing this, the Blessed One told him: “Misguided man, you will be recognised by your own pernicious view. I shall question the bhikkhus on this matter.”
https://suttacentral.net/mn38/en/bodhi#sc14
He then taught them a long discourse on Dependent Origination to correct the view. He didn't just call Sāti misguided and walk away...

Furthermore, Sāti had undertaken the training under the Buddha. This is a completely different situation from someone coming to a Forum such as this. They have not taken on the other Forum members on as teachers, so the dynamic is completely different.

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rightviewftw
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Re: Slandering buddha

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Jun 23, 2018 4:51 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 4:49 am
The Buddha did, famously, criticise Sāti, son of a fisherman, in MN 38: https://suttacentral.net/mn38/en/bodhi
When this was said, the bhikkhu Sāti, son of a fisherman, sat silent, dismayed, with shoulders drooping and head down, glum, and without response. Then, knowing this, the Blessed One told him: “Misguided man, you will be recognised by your own pernicious view. I shall question the bhikkhus on this matter.”
https://suttacentral.net/mn38/en/bodhi#sc14
He then taught them a long discourse on Dependent Origination to correct the view. He didn't just call Sāti misguided and walk away...

Furthermore, Sāti had undertaken the training under the Buddha. This is a completely different situation from someone coming to a Forum such as this. They have not taken on the other Forum members on as teachers, so the dynamic is completely different.

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Mike
Well it so happens i did not call anyone anything in particular. What am i supposed to call them heretics, hellbent run-of-the-mill blind worldlings?
"It's not the earth property that makes the true Dhamma disappear. It's not the water property... the fire property... the wind property that makes the true Dhamma disappear.[2] It's worthless people who arise right here [within the Sangha] who make the true Dhamma disappear. The true Dhamma doesn't disappear the way a boat sinks all at once.
There are Sutta likening those fixed in pernicious views to a cesspool, rubbish etc
"As a cesspool filled over a number of years is difficult to clean, similarly, whoever is full of impurity is difficult to make pure. Whoever you know to be such, bhikkhus, bent on worldliness, having wrong desires, wrong thoughts, wrong behavior and resort, being completely united avoid him, sweep him out like dirt, remove him like rubbish. Winnow like chaff the non-recluses. Having ejected those of wrong desires, of wrong behavior and resort, be pure and mindful, dwelling with those who are pure. Being united and prudent you will make an end to suffering."
also here is more quite strong discriminative language
Dhp Verses 58 - 59: As a sweet-smelling and beautiful lotus flower may grow upon a heap of rubbish thrown on the highway, so also, out of the rubbish heap of beings may appear a disciple of the Buddha, who with his wisdom shines forth far above the blind (ignorant) worldlings.
and here albeit not attributed to the Buddha;
A person ruthless & grasping, smeared like a nursing diaper: to him I have nothing to say. It's you to whom I should speak.
i like the nursing diaper comparison tho.

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mikenz66
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Re: Slandering buddha

Post by mikenz66 » Sat Jun 23, 2018 5:10 am

So what do you think would be achieved by describing people who come to this Forum like that?

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rightviewftw
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Re: Slandering buddha

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Jun 23, 2018 5:21 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 5:10 am
So what do you think would be achieved by describing people who come to this Forum like that?

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Mike
I do not describe "people who come to this forum" like that, i spoke of a particular type of poster. I have long advocated expelling the type of poster that i referred to as worthless garbage and a cancer and that is what i essentially want to achieve. I point them out as garbage and i provide scruptural evidence for expelling them, what more can i do...

Honestly i am tired of this, it seems like my views are not welcome here by the majority of people no matter how many Sutta referrences i provide, that has been made clear enough to me.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Sat Jun 23, 2018 5:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Wizard in the Forest
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Re: Slandering buddha

Post by Wizard in the Forest » Sat Jun 23, 2018 5:30 am

Your views are welcome. The discourtesy is however something I don't think is helpful. I have not understood. I am as faithful a Buddhist as can be, but I don't see the point in denigrating people on the board. I just find it tiresome and not really worth doing. I know in the Canki Sutta there are ways to train a person. If that person is not worth training you just leave them be and stop admonishing them all together and move on.
"One is not born a woman, but becomes one."- Simone de Beauvoir

rightviewftw
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Re: Slandering buddha

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Jun 23, 2018 5:33 am

Wizard in the Forest wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 5:30 am
Your views are welcome. The discourtesy is however something I don't have not understood. I am as faithful a Buddhist as can be, but I don't see the point in denigrating people on the board. I just find it tiresome and not really worth doing. I know in the Canki Sutta there are ways to train a person. If that person is not worth training you just leave them be and stop admonishing them all together and move on.
Imo moving on and ignoring the disruptive elements is not an option because they are to be expelled, not ignored. If they are not expelled they hurt themselves, annoy those who are in their opposition and are continiously misrepresenting the Dhamma. Leaving is the only viable option as i see it. It is the only option that completely solves the problem of quarreling and protects the meditator.

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Re: Slandering buddha

Post by Wizard in the Forest » Sat Jun 23, 2018 5:41 am

There's the Kesi Sutta approach, too. I think a combination of the Canki Sutta (Safeguarding the truth) and the Kesi Sutta (on how to train) will help you overcome this false dilemma. You can leave at your leisure, but I think you don't have to hold so fiercely to the idea that others must be banished or expelled.
"One is not born a woman, but becomes one."- Simone de Beauvoir

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mikenz66
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Re: Slandering buddha

Post by mikenz66 » Sat Jun 23, 2018 5:47 am

Wizard in the Forest wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 5:41 am
There's the Kesi Sutta approach, too. I think a combination of the Canki Sutta (Safeguarding the truth) and the Kesi Sutta (on how to train) will help you overcome this false dilemma. You can leave at your leisure, but I think you don't have to hold so fiercely to the idea that others must be banished or expelled.
Kesi Sutta: https://suttacentral.net/an4.111

Furthermore, the people who come here don't come here to train under the guidance of members or moderators... This is a discussion Forum, not a monastery.



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egon
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Re: Slandering buddha

Post by egon » Sat Jun 23, 2018 5:48 am

rightviewftw-
I understand that you didn't specifically insult any specific person. IMO that was clear. You've also made it clear that you believe that certain types of behavior and speech are deserving of harsh criticism, even as far as using descriptive language that is considered by many to be bullying and abusive.
How did you put it? It was a "tactic?" That's the part that doesn't make sense to so many people here. Calling a person a worthless piece of trash is dehumanizing. IME there are only 2 situations when using dehumanizing language to describe a person can result in that person taking a second look at their wrong-actions or wrong-views.

1- The person holds you in high enough regard that your opinion of them is important- making your harsh language something like a wake-up call.
2- The person has been bullied by you, or others, sufficiently to cause them to be unable to have inward compassion, and subsequently accepts your abusive language because it matches up with their pre-established low self-esteem.

If you are being truly honest about your intent, then you seem to be banking on the first example. Tell me- who in this forum holds you in such high regard? Are you anyone's teacher here? Their parent? Their loved one? Their role model? Who here would possibly have any motivation to be insulted and have any sort of constructive reaction to it?
So if there isn't anyone here who holds you in such high regard, then maybe you can dehumanize someone with a victim's mindset. I'm willing to take you at your word that this isn't your intent, so I'll move along.

Now who are we left with? Of course there are the people who couldn't care less what you say about them. Would verbal abuse change their ways? Nope. Next there are the people who are more sensitive, who do care what you say about them and take offense. Would verbal abuse change their ways? Nope. They just will like you less, thereby placing less value in your opinion, if they had placed any there in the first place. Then there are the people who gleefully clap their hands when they notice you reacting and giving them attention. You gonna change their ways by throwing negativity into the world? Nope. I do remember you saying you would just block those folks. Yeah, i think you should before you start talking trash.

So... I'm having trouble thinking of a scenario in which using abusive, dehumanizing language to describe a person will have any constructive outcome. OK, maybe there will be people who will observe this and say, "oooh rightviewftw just identified a heretic. I'm gonna block that heretic." OK, fine. I'll concede that possibility. Maybe someone with a tenuous hold on their practice will be spared some rude stubborn wrong-view. Unfortunately they'll still be seeing your rude stubborn right-view. Try putting a spoonful of sugar in that medicine for once. The hoi-polloi might swallow it then.

You sure did get a lot of attention in this thread though. How does that feel?

If you actually want a person to accept your criticism, try this: call their behavior garbage. Call their ideas worthless. Call their conduct trash. Call out their views for being so wrong that your computer stinks just from having it on your monitor. But don't call the people those things. The people are not those things. The people are people, with value. Even if you don't have compassion enough for them to refrain from dehumanizing them, consider that it doesn't accomplish your goal.

As always, I'm open to any contrasting points of view. If any of this post was disrespectful or inappropriate, please let me know.

rightviewftw
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Re: Slandering buddha

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Jun 23, 2018 6:28 am

egon wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 5:48 am
You sure did get a lot of attention in this thread though. How does that feel?
I feel tired but i have also felt annoyed and disappointed with people. I do not necessarily try to reform the people that i am trying to expell, i think they are unreformable, i simply want the sensible people to recognize the danger in keeping them around and leaving those behaviors unchecked.

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Sam Vara
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Re: Slandering buddha

Post by Sam Vara » Sat Jun 23, 2018 6:35 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 6:28 am
I feel tired but i have also felt annoyed and disappointed with people. I do not necessarily try to reform the people that i am trying to expell, i think they are unreformable, i simply want the sensible people to recognize the danger in keeping them around and leaving those behaviors unchecked.
Is there any evidence that the sensible people have recognised that danger, or have your tiredness, annoyance, and disappointment all been in vain?

rightviewftw
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Re: Slandering buddha

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Jun 23, 2018 6:39 am

Sam Vara wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 6:35 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 6:28 am
I feel tired but i have also felt annoyed and disappointed with people. I do not necessarily try to reform the people that i am trying to expell, i think they are unreformable, i simply want the sensible people to recognize the danger in keeping them around and leaving those behaviors unchecked.
Is there any evidence that the sensible people have recognised that danger, or have your tiredness, annoyance, and disappointment all been in vain?
well something good came out of it, a person actually asked me whom they should avoid and for what reason. The person also made a resolution to keep challenging the heretical doctrine, which i think is very wholesome but will grind them down. It also gave me clarity in regards to what kind of people this forum consists of and how i can better adjust my own practice.

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Sam Vara
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Re: Slandering buddha

Post by Sam Vara » Sat Jun 23, 2018 6:43 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 6:39 am
It also gave me clarity in regards to what kind of people this forum consists of and how i can better adjust my own practice.
Dare I ask what those adjustments are? Redoubled vigour to expel the worthless trash types, or a move towards equanimity?

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