Slandering buddha

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Pseudobabble
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Re: Slandering buddha

Post by Pseudobabble » Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:08 pm

rightviewftw wrote: some people should be referred to harshly to emphasize the seriousness of their wrong doings.
Why not concern yourself with your own wrong doings, and let others take care of themselves?
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha

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mikenz66
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Re: Slandering buddha

Post by mikenz66 » Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:11 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:05 pm
mikenz66 wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:04 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 4:57 pm
... it seems clear enough that some people should be referred to harshly to emphasize the seriousness of their wrong doings.
I suggest carefully considering the advice of the Buddha that I posted here:
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=32227&p=478333#p478333

Can you locate a sutta passage where the Buddha advised harsh speech?
[Not a passage where the speech of the Buddha appears harsh...]

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Mike
can you find a passage where i said that the Tathagata advised harsh speech?
Not a passage where the speech of the Buddha would appears to be harsh...
Sorry, I don't understand your reply.

You said: "It seems clear enough that some people should be referred to harshly to emphasize the seriousness of their wrong doings."
I asked whether there is any such advice in the suttas. Is there? If not, why did you say it?

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Mike

rightviewftw
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Re: Slandering buddha

Post by rightviewftw » Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:12 pm

mikenz66 wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:11 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:05 pm
mikenz66 wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:04 pm

I suggest carefully considering the advice of the Buddha that I posted here:
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=32227&p=478333#p478333

Can you locate a sutta passage where the Buddha advised harsh speech?
[Not a passage where the speech of the Buddha appears harsh...]

:heart:
Mike
can you find a passage where i said that the Tathagata advised harsh speech?
Not a passage where the speech of the Buddha would appears to be harsh...
Sorry, I don't understand your reply.

You said: "It seems clear enough that some people should be referred to harshly to emphasize the seriousness of their wrong doings."
I asked whether there is any such advice in the suttas. Is there? If not, why did you say it?

:heart:
Mike
I think personally if someone is referred to as worthless, that is referring to harshly and i guess you think it only "appears" to be harsh. Well in that case when i refer to heretics and people who have no regard for The Noble Ones as worthless trash, you can think of it in the same way.

Also i did not say Buddha advises harsh speech, i said some people should be referred to harshly as is evident in the Sutta.

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mikenz66
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Re: Slandering buddha

Post by mikenz66 » Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:19 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:12 pm
I think personally if someone is referred to as worthless, that is referring to harshly and i guess you think it only "appears" to be harsh. Well in that case when i refer to heretics and people who have no regard for The Noble Ones as worthless trash, you can think of it in the same way.
I have not seen anyone calling you worthless, but of course I may have missed something. I've seen people say that you are misguided. Of course, I'd prefer that members talk other's ideas or actions as being misguided instead...
rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:12 pm
Also i did not say Buddha advises harsh speech, i said some people should be referred to harshly.
Thank you for the clarification. What makes you think that harsh speech will bring any benefit? Have you had success with that approach in the past?

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Mike

rightviewftw
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Re: Slandering buddha

Post by rightviewftw » Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:23 pm

mikenz66 wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:19 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:12 pm
Also i did not say Buddha advises harsh speech, i said some people should be referred to harshly.
Thank you for the clarification. What makes you think that harsh speech will bring any benefit? Have you had success with that approach in the past?

:heart:
Mike
Again i am advocating harsh speech only to the extent that it is evidently used in the Sutta.
In the same way that violence could be used if an infant swallows a marble as in violent extraction [necessary harm], out of sympathy i would have no problem referring harshly to someone where it is due.

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Pseudobabble
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Re: Slandering buddha

Post by Pseudobabble » Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:34 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:23 pm
mikenz66 wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:19 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:12 pm
Also i did not say Buddha advises harsh speech, i said some people should be referred to harshly.
Thank you for the clarification. What makes you think that harsh speech will bring any benefit? Have you had success with that approach in the past?

:heart:
Mike
Again i am advocating harsh speech only to the extent that it is evidently used in the Sutta.
In the same way that violence could be used if an infant swallows a marble as in violent extraction [necessary harm], out of sympathy i would have no problem referring harshly to someone where it is due.
Because of course, you are the one who needs to teach everyone else how not to mess themselves up right? You are one who knows, right? We are the baby, with the marble, and you are the one who saves the baby.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha

rightviewftw
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Re: Slandering buddha

Post by rightviewftw » Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:36 pm

Pseudobabble wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:34 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:23 pm
mikenz66 wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:19 pm

Thank you for the clarification. What makes you think that harsh speech will bring any benefit? Have you had success with that approach in the past?

:heart:
Mike
Again i am advocating harsh speech only to the extent that it is evidently used in the Sutta.
In the same way that violence could be used if an infant swallows a marble as in violent extraction [necessary harm], out of sympathy i would have no problem referring harshly to someone where it is due.
Because of course, you are the one who needs to teach everyone else how not to mess themselves up right? You are one who knows, right? We are the baby, with the marble, and you are the one who saves the baby.
I only answered why referring to someone harshly could be of benefit. Relying on my best judgement i would do it where i saw fit, but i am not claiming to be incapable of wrong so i always run a risk of being wrong when i do it as i see fit, as i previously stated.

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Wizard in the Forest
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Re: Slandering buddha

Post by Wizard in the Forest » Sat Jun 23, 2018 3:16 am

You miss context a lot. "The worthless man" quoting immediately is often followed by the

"But now you, foolish man, not only misrepresent me because of your own wrong grasp, but you also injure yourself and give rise to much demerit which, foolish man, will be for your woe and sorrow for a long time.”


https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

^the entire Sutta relevant to what is going on here.
"One is not born a woman, but becomes one."- Simone de Beauvoir

rightviewftw
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Re: Slandering buddha

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Jun 23, 2018 4:22 am

Wizard in the Forest wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 3:16 am
You miss context a lot. "The worthless man" quoting immediately is often followed by the

"But now you, foolish man, not only misrepresent me because of your own wrong grasp, but you also injure yourself and give rise to much demerit which, foolish man, will be for your woe and sorrow for a long time.”


https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

^the entire Sutta relevant to what is going on here.
if you are talking to me i don't know what is the point you are trying to make. That people fixed in wrong view and misrepresent the Dhamma ought not be referred to as worthless?

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mikenz66
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Re: Slandering buddha

Post by mikenz66 » Sat Jun 23, 2018 4:32 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 4:22 am
That people fixed in wrong view and misrepresent the Dhamma ought not be referred to as worthless?
Will it be beneficial to call them worthless? If not, it probably should not be said, as far as I understand the Buddha...

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Mike

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retrofuturist
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Re: Slandering buddha

Post by retrofuturist » Sat Jun 23, 2018 4:34 am

Greetings,
mikenz66 wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 4:32 am
Will it be beneficial to call them worthless? If not, it probably should not be said, as far as I understand the Buddha...
Well the Buddha did call people worthless, but it was never when they were making a genuine effort to understand him.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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mikenz66
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Re: Slandering buddha

Post by mikenz66 » Sat Jun 23, 2018 4:38 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 4:34 am
Well the Buddha did call people worthless, but it was never when they were making a genuine effort to understand him.
And only when it would be helpful in some way...

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Mike

rightviewftw
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Re: Slandering buddha

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Jun 23, 2018 4:39 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 4:32 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 4:22 am
That people fixed in wrong view and misrepresent the Dhamma ought not be referred to as worthless?
Will it be beneficial to call them worthless? If not, it probably should not be said, as far as I understand the Buddha...

:heart:
Mike
Honestly I am not sure but under the current circumstances i was inclined to do it. Not because i was angry but because i saw it fit and tactically viable.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Sat Jun 23, 2018 4:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Wizard in the Forest
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Re: Slandering buddha

Post by Wizard in the Forest » Sat Jun 23, 2018 4:39 am

People of wrong view should not be called worthless, yes. They should be slowly exposed to the right view, and once they practice, they slowly come to know what kind of wrong view they have, and then they can let it go. That requires meditation and we can't meditate for them, nor should we try to bully them into right view. Many are making sincere efforts to practice. Encourage them, don't put them down.

What you hope to benefit by speaking thusly? It doesn't endear them to what is actually Buddha Vacana, and that's the worst thing you could do to an aspirant.
"One is not born a woman, but becomes one."- Simone de Beauvoir

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mikenz66
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Re: Slandering buddha

Post by mikenz66 » Sat Jun 23, 2018 4:42 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 4:39 am
Honestly I am not sure but under the current circumstances i was inclined to do it. Not because i was angry but because i saw it fit and tactically viable.
Did it have a beneficial effect?

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Mike

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