Does the cause for craving is feeling ?

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James Tan
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Does the cause for craving is feeling ?

Post by James Tan » Tue Jun 19, 2018 3:59 pm

Greetings ,


https://suttacentral.net/dn15/en/bodhi

“Thus, Ānanda, with mentality-materiality as condition there is consciousness; with consciousness as condition there is mentality-materiality; with mentality-materiality as condition there is contact; with contact as condition there is feeling; with feeling as condition there is craving; with craving as condition there is clinging; with clinging as condition there is existence; with existence as condition there is birth; and with birth as condition, aging and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair come to be. Such is the origin of this entire mass of suffering.”



What is the main cause for craving to arise ?
Also , does an arahant still have feelings ?


:namaste:
:reading:

Garrib
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Re: Does the cause for craving is feeling ?

Post by Garrib » Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:38 pm

James Tan wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 3:59 pm
Greetings ,


https://suttacentral.net/dn15/en/bodhi

“Thus, Ānanda, with mentality-materiality as condition there is consciousness; with consciousness as condition there is mentality-materiality; with mentality-materiality as condition there is contact; with contact as condition there is feeling; with feeling as condition there is craving; with craving as condition there is clinging; with clinging as condition there is existence; with existence as condition there is birth; and with birth as condition, aging and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair come to be. Such is the origin of this entire mass of suffering.”



What is the main cause for craving to arise ?
Also , does an arahant still have feelings ?


:namaste:
I think that feeling conditions/precedes craving when there is ignorance. When ignorance has been destroyed (Arahant), then feeling may still arise so long as that kamma which produces feeling has not been exhausted. However, no new craving will arise from that feeling, and no new kamma will be produced.

JohnK
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Re: Does the cause for craving is feeling ?

Post by JohnK » Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:57 pm

James Tan wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 3:59 pm
Greetings ,
...What is the main cause for craving to arise ?
My understanding:
The proximate cause is the arising of the "underlying tendencies" to react to pleasant feeling with desire, painful feeling with aversion, and neither painful nor pleasant feeling with ignorance.
What causes these tendencies to arise? Not understanding the gratification, danger, and escape in regard to feelings.
Even a once-returner "weakens" (but does not uproot) lust, ill-will, and delusion.
"...the practice is essentially a practice, and not a theory to be idly discussed...right view leaves unanswered many questions about the cosmos and the self, and directs your attention to what needs to be done to escape from the ravages of suffering." Thanissaro Bhikkhu, On The Path.

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JamesTheGiant
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Re: Does the cause for craving is feeling ?

Post by JamesTheGiant » Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:04 pm

James Tan wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 3:59 pm
What is the main cause for craving to arise ?
All of the conditions you quoted are equally the causes for craving. But the most important stage in that cycle for us humans is Craving, because that's the only part of the process we can influence or alter.

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mikenz66
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Re: Does the cause for craving is feeling ?

Post by mikenz66 » Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:50 pm

It might be helpful to look at the analyses here for more details.
And what is craving? There are these six classes of craving. Craving for sights, sounds, smells, tastes, touches, and thoughts. This is called craving.

And what is feeling? There are these six classes of feeling. Feeling born of contact through the eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, and mind. This is called feeling.

And what is contact? There are these six classes of contact. Contact through the eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, and mind. This is called contact.

https://suttacentral.net/sn12.2/en/sujato#sc7--sc9
“Mendicants, these three feelings are born, rooted, sourced, and conditioned by contact. What three? Pleasant, painful, and neutral feeling. Pleasant feeling arises dependent on a contact to be experienced as pleasant.
https://suttacentral.net/sn36.10/en/sujato#sc1
“Mendicants, there are these three feelings. What three? Pleasant, painful, and neutral feeling. The underlying tendency to greed should be given up when it comes to pleasant feeling. The underlying tendency to repulsion should be given up when it comes to painful feeling. The underlying tendency to ignorance should be given up when it comes to neutral feeling. When a mendicant has given up these underlying tendencies, they’re called a mendicant without underlying tendencies, who sees rightly, has cut off craving, untied the fetters, and by rightly comprehending conceit has made an end of suffering.”
https://suttacentral.net/sn36.3/en/sujato#sc1
“And what, mendicants, is the origin of suffering? Eye consciousness arises dependent on the eye and sights. The meeting of the three is contact. Contact is a condition for feeling. Feeling is a condition for craving. This is the origin of suffering.
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.43/en/sujato#sc2
:heart:
Mike

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Re: Does the cause for craving is feeling ?

Post by Dinsdale » Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:27 am

James Tan wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 3:59 pm
Also, does an arahant still have feelings ?
Looking at the Arrow Sutta my understanding is there are still physical feelings for the Arahant, but that mental feelings have ceased.

"In the same way, when touched with a feeling of pain, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. He feels one pain: physical, but not mental."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

I'm not clear though what this implies for dependent origination in cessation mode - does the vedana in DO just refer to mental feeling, or does it include physical feeling?
Buddha save me from new-agers!

justindesilva
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Re: Does the cause for craving is feeling ?

Post by justindesilva » Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:15 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:27 am
James Tan wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 3:59 pm
Also, does an arahant still have feelings ?
Looking at the Arrow Sutta my understanding is there are still physical feelings for the Arahant, but that mental feelings have ceased.

"In the same way, when touched with a feeling of pain, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. He feels one pain: physical, but not mental."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

I'm not clear though what this implies for dependent origination in cessation mode - does the vedana in DO just refer to mental feeling, or does it include physical feeling?
When feeling ( vedana) was explained by Walasmulle abaya thero. in a sermon he explained that feelings on eye , nose, tongue , and ears as signals received they are mind related and vingnana is something within these body forms as ear tongue eye or nose. But body feeling is felt on the skin yet the vingnana is mind related.
Here we have to understand that pain is felt through vingnana and is not physical.
As I can see the hindus sleeping on thorns are a clear example as with devotion they can repel the pain with their mind. When feeling a person with closed eyes if it is a pleasant person , one feels craved while on seeing the person in feeling is a beggar with skin disorders the mind will repel the desires. In DO we can analise each Indriya or faculty similarly to know that it is not the physical which feels but the mind.

James Tan
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Re: Does the cause for craving is feeling ?

Post by James Tan » Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:28 am

Garrib wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:38 pm
James Tan wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 3:59 pm
Greetings ,


https://suttacentral.net/dn15/en/bodhi

“Thus, Ānanda, with mentality-materiality as condition there is consciousness; with consciousness as condition there is mentality-materiality; with mentality-materiality as condition there is contact; with contact as condition there is feeling; with feeling as condition there is craving; with craving as condition there is clinging; with clinging as condition there is existence; with existence as condition there is birth; and with birth as condition, aging and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair come to be. Such is the origin of this entire mass of suffering.”



What is the main cause for craving to arise ?
Also , does an arahant still have feelings ?


:namaste:
I think that feeling conditions/precedes craving when there is ignorance. When ignorance has been destroyed (Arahant), then feeling may still arise so long as that kamma which produces feeling has not been exhausted. However, no new craving will arise from that feeling, and no new kamma will be produced.
We do not have craving all the time , so feeling should not be the main cause but ignorance .
According to cessation origination , once abandoned ignorance following by cessation of sankhara consciousness namarupa contact feeling craving and so on .
One by one will ceased to be , it seems contact has to be ceased first following by feeling , therefore , arahant looks like don't have feeling?!
:reading:

James Tan
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Re: Does the cause for craving is feeling ?

Post by James Tan » Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:50 am

JohnK wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:57 pm
James Tan wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 3:59 pm
Greetings ,
...What is the main cause for craving to arise ?
My understanding:
The proximate cause is the arising of the "underlying tendencies" to react to pleasant feeling with desire, painful feeling with aversion, and neither painful nor pleasant feeling with ignorance.
What causes these tendencies to arise? Not understanding the gratification, danger, and escape in regard to feelings.
Even a once-returner "weakens" (but does not uproot) lust, ill-will, and delusion.
The cause for these tendencies should be ignorance don't you think ?
Last edited by James Tan on Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
:reading:

James Tan
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Re: Does the cause for craving is feeling ?

Post by James Tan » Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:55 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:50 pm
“Mendicants, there are these three feelings. What three? Pleasant, painful, and neutral feeling. The underlying tendency to greed should be given up when it comes to pleasant feeling. The underlying tendency to repulsion should be given up when it comes to painful feeling. The underlying tendency to ignorance should be given up when it comes to neutral feeling. When a mendicant has given up these underlying tendencies, they’re called a mendicant without underlying tendencies, who sees rightly, has cut off craving, untied the fetters, and by rightly comprehending conceit has made an end of suffering.”
https://suttacentral.net/sn36.3/en/sujato#sc1

:heart:
Mike
How does one give up ignorant tendency with regard to neutral feeling ?!
:reading:

auto
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Re: Does the cause for craving is feeling ?

Post by auto » Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:57 pm

if you put your tongue against refrigerator you feel there this AC current. That is not a feeling suitable for to name feeling.

Because craving is sustenance(nope). You won't reach that point where you get to start feel craving if your body manages, balances it on its own part through skin resistance or something or your tongue just goes numb or fell off, you won't reach craving.

Form you see or touch doesn't cause consciousness to arise. You need also mentality, like mentality from a football game you lost now you have mentality of a loser, so anyone who talks about losing a match you will feel the words within you and they will cause craving yearning for better existence you may dream of having a comeback and will prove yourself to be a great football player.

The feeling of AC current through a skin would be suitable if you could drop the skin resistance and let that into your body for to develop craving so you could see what AC wants from you or wants you to do.

JohnK
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Re: Does the cause for craving is feeling ?

Post by JohnK » Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:17 pm

James Tan wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:50 am
JohnK wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:57 pm
James Tan wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 3:59 pm
Greetings ,
...What is the main cause for craving to arise ?
My understanding:
The proximate cause is the arising of the "underlying tendencies" to react to pleasant feeling with desire, painful feeling with aversion, and neither painful nor pleasant feeling with ignorance.
What causes these tendencies to arise? Not understanding the gratification, danger, and escape in regard to feelings.
Even a once-returner "weakens" (but does not uproot) lust, ill-will, and delusion.
The cause for these tendencies should be ignorance don't you think ?
Yes, and it could be said specifically ignorance of the gratification, danger and escape with regard to feeling; also I think whatever ignorance lies behind the continued existence of the fetters from which those tendencies spring.
(This discussion brings a thought to mind: Picking a singular theoretical cause can be useful but can potentially hide the specific this/that complexity of DO, kamma, the development of the eightfold path, and the other tasks associated with the 4NT. Seeing the actual in situ details of the arising of suffering may ultimately be more conducive to liberation.)
"...the practice is essentially a practice, and not a theory to be idly discussed...right view leaves unanswered many questions about the cosmos and the self, and directs your attention to what needs to be done to escape from the ravages of suffering." Thanissaro Bhikkhu, On The Path.

JohnK
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Re: Does the cause for craving is feeling ?

Post by JohnK » Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:00 pm

James Tan wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:55 am
mikenz66 wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:50 pm
...When a mendicant has given up these underlying tendencies, they’re called a mendicant without underlying tendencies, who sees rightly, has cut off craving, untied the fetters, and by rightly comprehending conceit has made an end of suffering.”
https://suttacentral.net/sn36.3/en/sujato#sc1
:heart:
Mike
How does one give up ignorant tendency with regard to neutral feeling ?!
I hope Mike or others weigh in on this question.
It might begin with an understanding of how ignorance and "neither painful nor pleasant' are related.
The connection between ignorance and its associated vedana is not as obvious (to me) as the connection between the other two underlying tendencies and their associated vedana. (I started a thread on this awhile ago viewtopic.php?f=13&t=26787&hilit=vedana but it is still not very clear to me.)
"...the practice is essentially a practice, and not a theory to be idly discussed...right view leaves unanswered many questions about the cosmos and the self, and directs your attention to what needs to be done to escape from the ravages of suffering." Thanissaro Bhikkhu, On The Path.

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mikenz66
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Re: Does the cause for craving is feeling ?

Post by mikenz66 » Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:11 pm

JohnK wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:00 pm
How does one give up ignorant tendency with regard to neutral feeling ?!
I hope Mike or others weigh in on this question.
Ha! I wish I knew how to give up ignorant tendencies... :tongue:

Here are a few clues:
“Pleasant feeling is pleasant when it remains and painful when it perishes. Painful feeling is painful when it remains and pleasant when it perishes. Neutral feeling is pleasant when there is knowledge, and painful when there is ignorance.”
https://suttacentral.net/mn44/en/sujato#sc42
...
“But ma’am, what is the counterpart of pleasant feeling?”
“Painful feeling.”
“What is the counterpart of painful feeling?”
“Pleasant feeling.”
“What is the counterpart of neutral feeling?”
“Ignorance.”
“What is the counterpart of ignorance?”
“Knowledge.”
“What is the counterpart of knowledge?”
“Freedom.”
“What is the counterpart of freedom?”
“Extinguishment.”
“What is the counterpart of extinguishment?”
“Your question goes too far, Visākha. You couldn’t figure out the limit of questions. For extinguishment is the culmination, destination, and end of the spiritual life. If you wish, go to the Buddha and ask him this question. You should remember it in line with his answer.”
https://suttacentral.net/mn44/en/sujato#sc51
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Mike

justindesilva
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Re: Does the cause for craving is feeling ?

Post by justindesilva » Thu Jun 21, 2018 2:41 am

Is it not that upekka is the neutral feeling.
If not , what is this neutral feeling?

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