Without the knowledge , is there a self ?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
santa100
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Re: Without the knowledge , is there a self ?

Post by santa100 » Sun Jun 17, 2018 5:37 pm

Saengnapha wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 5:25 pm
I think you are equating physical processes with a sense of self. Self identity is psychological. That is where suffering resides. No dhammas have a sense of self. A sense of self is an assumption not an ultimate reality. You equate rebirth with a self that dies and takes rebirth. This is not Buddhism.
You are putting words in my mouth. Where exactly in my post did you see I said all dhammas have a sense of self? I specifically mentioned the specific scenario of a child being born in the jungle just like in the OP. I also never "equate rebirth with a self". Those are your words. I did mention the notion of "I", "mine", "myself" which always exist as long as one has not attained arahantship, and this "self-identity" doesn't need education nor training to arise. And this is to directly address the core OP inquiry: whether self-identity requires "knowledge" or not.

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Bundokji
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Re: Without the knowledge , is there a self ?

Post by Bundokji » Sun Jun 17, 2018 6:46 pm

Saengnapha wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 5:09 pm
I think I see where we are diverging. There is physical pain and psychological suffering. The baby is an organism ruled by physical urges and evolution. Everything is physical to the developing child until the psychological is developed later on. I don't see that there is any self or self view involved with physical evolution or instinctual needs, only with psychological development. A view, after all, needs a brain to actualize it. A brain needs experiences to synthesize any view of anything. Without experience, there are no perceptions or views about anything at all. Suffering is psychological, not physical. Pain is physical. There seems to be a difference between the two. There is no psychological suffering in the baby because it has not developed the faculties that will suffer until later in their development. It is perception, memory, and cognition that get distorted and create a self view, and hence, suffering. It is all psychological.
Exactly, suffering is psychological and pain is physical. Without self view, physical pain will not translate into psychological pain. The child cries (psychological) and he looks stressed when experience pain (psychological) hence he has self view.

My input is self evident, your view is based on speculation.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

Saengnapha
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Re: Without the knowledge , is there a self ?

Post by Saengnapha » Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:09 am

santa100 wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 5:37 pm
Saengnapha wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 5:25 pm
I think you are equating physical processes with a sense of self. Self identity is psychological. That is where suffering resides. No dhammas have a sense of self. A sense of self is an assumption not an ultimate reality. You equate rebirth with a self that dies and takes rebirth. This is not Buddhism.
You are putting words in my mouth. Where exactly in my post did you see I said all dhammas have a sense of self? I specifically mentioned the specific scenario of a child being born in the jungle just like in the OP. I also never "equate rebirth with a self". Those are your words. I did mention the notion of "I", "mine", "myself" which always exist as long as one has not attained arahantship, and this "self-identity" doesn't need education nor training to arise. And this is to directly address the core OP inquiry: whether self-identity requires "knowledge" or not.
A sense of self is not something that simply pops up out of accumulated training and knowledge. It's always been there. The fact that a being still get reborn again as a child is the obvious proof that "self-identity" still exists. Otherwise, there's no coming back if one's totally removed all notions of "I", "mine", "myself" (ie. the arahants).
A sense of self is something that simply pops up out of accumulated experience which is interpreted in your brain (thinking) as a self, the center of experience, the experiencer. It has not always been there and this is the point I am arguing. A being in possession of a self doesn't get reborn. This would go against the Buddhist teachings of anatta. The sense of self is a fabrication appearing when a body has developed a psychological persona. You need knowledge to develop the psychological. This seems pretty self-evident and is also echoed by the latest science of the neuroscientists today. There is no suffering without a psychological persona and that persona is illusory. We may not want to believe this as we are so indoctrinated into our 'selves' but you can see it in operation in every moment if you take a look.

Saengnapha
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Re: Without the knowledge , is there a self ?

Post by Saengnapha » Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:13 am

Bundokji wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 6:46 pm
Saengnapha wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 5:09 pm
I think I see where we are diverging. There is physical pain and psychological suffering. The baby is an organism ruled by physical urges and evolution. Everything is physical to the developing child until the psychological is developed later on. I don't see that there is any self or self view involved with physical evolution or instinctual needs, only with psychological development. A view, after all, needs a brain to actualize it. A brain needs experiences to synthesize any view of anything. Without experience, there are no perceptions or views about anything at all. Suffering is psychological, not physical. Pain is physical. There seems to be a difference between the two. There is no psychological suffering in the baby because it has not developed the faculties that will suffer until later in their development. It is perception, memory, and cognition that get distorted and create a self view, and hence, suffering. It is all psychological.
Exactly, suffering is psychological and pain is physical. Without self view, physical pain will not translate into psychological pain. The child cries (psychological) and he looks stressed when experience pain (psychological) hence he has self view.

My input is self evident, your view is based on speculation.
It is self evident now, in this moment. You were the one who introduced the child which is speculative. All I introduced was the fact that there is no self view apart from the psychological. That is not speculation.

James Tan
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Re: Without the knowledge , is there a self ?

Post by James Tan » Mon Jun 18, 2018 9:26 am

santa100 wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 5:13 pm
James Tan wrote:Say for example , if a child living in the surrounding of animals , would s/he has a sense of self ?
A sense of self is not something that simply pops up out of accumulated training and knowledge. It's always been there. The fact that a being still get reborn again as a child is the obvious proof that "self-identity" still exists. Otherwise, there's no coming back if one's totally removed all notions of "I", "mine", "myself" (ie. the arahants). Now that child in your scenario might not develop the proper vocabulary to label the various surrounding objects due to lack of educated knowledge, but that has no bearing on his "sense of self". When he grows up and becomes an adult, if he sees another man flirting with a beautiful young woman in the forest, without a single bit of prior education, there're still all kinds of emotions like curiosity, rage, lust, envy, etc. arisen in him, those without "self-identity" wouldn't have arisen at all, like the case of an arahant.
Self identity is the perception or recognition of one's characteristics as a particular individual,
and sameness of a thing with itself.

The sense of being alive (existence) is different from the sense of a permanent self ! The permanent being or permanent self which is self view is something occurs after learning of the knowledge and experience .

Without the knowledge to identify that this body is me, I , mine , then no self view will arise .

How does a person able to understand anything without the help of the knowledge ?
:reading:

santa100
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Re: Without the knowledge , is there a self ?

Post by santa100 » Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:29 pm

James Tan wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 9:26 am
Self identity is the perception or recognition of one's characteristics as a particular individual,
and sameness of a thing with itself.

The sense of being alive (existence) is different from the sense of a permanent self ! The permanent being or permanent self which is self view is something occurs after learning of the knowledge and experience .

Without the knowledge to identify that this body is me, I , mine , then no self view will arise .

How does a person able to understand anything without the help of the knowledge ?
Does that kid in your scenario need any knowledge/education for him to do things that benefit himself? Does he need any knowledge/training to have a sense of "I", "mine", and "myself"?

James Tan
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Re: Without the knowledge , is there a self ?

Post by James Tan » Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:35 am

santa100 wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:29 pm
James Tan wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 9:26 am
Self identity is the perception or recognition of one's characteristics as a particular individual,
and sameness of a thing with itself.

The sense of being alive (existence) is different from the sense of a permanent self ! The permanent being or permanent self which is self view is something occurs after learning of the knowledge and experience .

Without the knowledge to identify that this body is me, I , mine , then no self view will arise .

How does a person able to understand anything without the help of the knowledge ?
Does that kid in your scenario need any knowledge/education for him to do things that benefit himself? Does he need any knowledge/training to have a sense of "I", "mine", and "myself"?
You must be mistaken the feeling or sense of being alive to be the sense of having permanent self which is self view and self identity .
:reading:

santa100
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Re: Without the knowledge , is there a self ?

Post by santa100 » Tue Jun 19, 2018 12:42 pm

James Tan wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:35 am
You must be mistaken the feeling or sense of being alive to be the sense of having permanent self which is self view and self identity .
I asked you a very simple question and you're still unable to give a simple answer.

James Tan
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Re: Without the knowledge , is there a self ?

Post by James Tan » Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:57 pm

santa100 wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:29 pm
James Tan wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 9:26 am
Self identity is the perception or recognition of one's characteristics as a particular individual,
and sameness of a thing with itself.

The sense of being alive (existence) is different from the sense of a permanent self ! The permanent being or permanent self which is self view is something occurs after learning of the knowledge and experience .

Without the knowledge to identify that this body is me, I , mine , then no self view will arise .

How does a person able to understand anything without the help of the knowledge ?
Does that kid in your scenario need any knowledge/education for him to do things that benefit himself? Does he need any knowledge/training to have a sense of "I", "mine", and "myself"?
What do you mean the kid have sense of self ? If you elaborate clearly maybe I can answer .
:reading:

santa100
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Re: Without the knowledge , is there a self ?

Post by santa100 » Tue Jun 19, 2018 2:57 pm

James Tan wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:57 pm
What do you mean the kid have sense of self ? If you elaborate clearly maybe I can answer .
I meant exactly what I asked you: Does that kid in your scenario need any knowledge/education for him to do things that benefit himself? Does he need any knowledge/training to have a sense of "I", "mine", and "myself"?

James Tan
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Re: Without the knowledge , is there a self ?

Post by James Tan » Tue Jun 19, 2018 3:19 pm

santa100 wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 2:57 pm
James Tan wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:57 pm
What do you mean the kid have sense of self ? If you elaborate clearly maybe I can answer .
I meant exactly what I asked you: Does that kid in your scenario need any knowledge/education for him to do things that benefit himself? Does he need any knowledge/training to have a sense of "I", "mine", and "myself"?
I would say the kid without worldly education without a single word of knowledge , only able to survive instinctively like animal in the jungle .

He would not have a sense of self in accordance with Buddha's teaching . Where the Buddha taught the self view means to take the five aggregates as something permanent and of sameness .

The kid without any knowledge will not regards the five aggregates as permanent self and therefore would not have a self view .
:reading:

santa100
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Re: Without the knowledge , is there a self ?

Post by santa100 » Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:00 pm

James Tan wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 3:19 pm
I would say the kid without worldly education without a single word of knowledge , only able to survive instinctively like animal in the jungle .

He would not have a sense of self in accordance with Buddha's teaching . Where the Buddha taught the self view means to take the five aggregates as something permanent and of sameness .

The kid without any knowledge will not regards the five aggregates as permanent self and therefore would not have a self view .
Problem is that you did not mention these exact criteria in your OP. You only asked "Without knowledge, is there a self". Now all of a sudden you added all the specifics like: "having a sense of self in accordance with Buddha's teaching", "self view means to take the five aggregates as something permanent and of sameness". Had you provided these exact definitions, then you wouldn't even need to raise the OP for it's just blatantly obvious that a person without Buddhist education would have no idea what "five aggregates as something permanent and of sameness" even means!

James Tan
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Re: Without the knowledge , is there a self ?

Post by James Tan » Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:10 pm

santa100 wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:00 pm
James Tan wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 3:19 pm
I would say the kid without worldly education without a single word of knowledge , only able to survive instinctively like animal in the jungle .

He would not have a sense of self in accordance with Buddha's teaching . Where the Buddha taught the self view means to take the five aggregates as something permanent and of sameness .

The kid without any knowledge will not regards the five aggregates as permanent self and therefore would not have a self view .
Problem is that you did not mention these exact criteria in your OP. You only asked "Without knowledge, is there a self". Now all of a sudden you added all the specifics like: "having a sense of self in accordance with Buddha's teaching", "self view means to take the five aggregates as something permanent and of sameness". Had you provided these exact definitions, then you wouldn't even need to raise the OP for it's just blatantly obvious that a person without Buddhist education would have no idea what "five aggregates as something permanent and of sameness" even means!
Do you think the animals has any notion of self according to Buddha's teaching ?
:reading:

santa100
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Re: Without the knowledge , is there a self ?

Post by santa100 » Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:59 pm

James Tan wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:10 pm
Do you think the animals has any notion of self according to Buddha's teaching ?
Another redundant question. With all of your recently added criteria about "self" that makes it obviously impossible for even that kid in your scenario, why bother asking about animals? By the way, my questions did not require all your newly injected criteria, given my very simple questions, just answer yes or no to the original questions:
Does that kid in your scenario need any knowledge/education for him to do things that benefit himself? Does he need any knowledge/training to have a sense of "I", "mine", and "myself"?

Saengnapha
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Re: Without the knowledge , is there a self ?

Post by Saengnapha » Wed Jun 20, 2018 6:50 am

santa100 wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 2:57 pm
I meant exactly what I asked you: Does that kid in your scenario need any knowledge/education for him to do things that benefit himself? Does he need any knowledge/training to have a sense of "I", "mine", and "myself"?
The short answer is yes. It is impossible for anyone to do anything without knowledge. It is how we learn to function in the world and with others. You simply refer to your bodily actions as mine, not his or hers. This doesn't imply that there is an actual entity inside of the body. It is just how we communicate simple facts to each other so there is no confusion.

Keep in mind that James is not a native english speaker and his posts often have grammatical errors, etc. I also find it difficult to follow some of his posts because of this.

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