Does the four noble truth described psychological suffering Or Five aggregates suffering ?DooDoot wrote: ↑Fri Jun 15, 2018 11:15 amI think the above idea is not relevant; as though the aggregates are something static. In other words, I personally doubt 'nama-rupa' is intended to refer to the 'five aggregates'.
'Nama' appears to be referring to mentality or mental faculties that can be engaged for the path; or otherwise drowned & enslaved by ignorance. For example, there can be wise feeling, wise perception, wise intention, wise contact & wise attention and there can be ignorant feeling, ignorant perception, ignorant intention, ignorant contact & ignorant attention. Yoniso and ayoniso manasikara (wise & unwise attention) are mentioned many times in the suttas, such as:
Lack of mindfulness and clear comprehension, too, I say, has a nutriment; it is not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for lack of mindfulness and clear comprehension? It should be said: careless attention.
AN 10.61This has been posted many times but I think it remains unsubstantiated & unproven. I think the suttas might support the view of mental descriptions of birth, aging and death in DO; given the core notion in these descriptions is "satta"; which per SN 23.2 and SN 5.10 appears to be described as a "view". I continue to struggle to comprehend why folks view the descriptions of birth, aging and death in DO as "physical". When the mind imputes "self" or "satta" upon rupa (physicality); this does not make the imputing something physical. If aging & death were physical, why would the following discussion occur in SN 12.67?
On one occasion Ven. Sariputta and Ven. MahaKotthita were staying near Varanasi in the Deer Park at Isipatana. Then in the evening, arising from his seclusion, Ven. MahaKotthita went to Ven. Sariputta and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with him. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to Ven. Sariputta: "Now tell me, Sariputta my friend: Are aging & death self-made or other-made or both self-made & other-made, or — without self-making or other-making — do they arise spontaneously?"
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ati/tip ... .than.html
This seems to be inferring there is a contradiction in the suttas. My impression is the mutual dependence of consciousness and nama+rupa is only mentioned in suttas (such as SN 12.67; DN 15) that don't trace back the causality to ignorance (although I have not read every sutta). In other words, these suttas target the primary cause as craving.Dinsdale wrote: ↑Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:31 amSome suggest feed-back loops in DO, though I don't see support for this idea in the suttas. Some interpretations are heavily focussed on the mutual dependence of consciousness and name+form, but the problem I see here is that most DO suttas don't actually describe this, rather they describe name+form arising in dependence upon consciousness.
If suffering only pertaining to mentally pains ,
What's all the Fusses , really ?
Some people just don't bother much about so called mind suffering , that is short-lived .
Those believed in Creator , does not think all this matter much .
The abandoning of defilements , ie the ending of greed hatred and ignorant , ultimately bring an end to cycle of birth and death which is physicality . There is No More Arising of Future six sense organ . That’s the whole point .
Assuming , after enlightenment , one is able to come back to this world which is taking new birth with a renew six sense organ .
One still goes through aging , sickness and death . Physicality suffering is still affecting us.