Is Dependent Origination about Nama,Rupa or Nama-Rupa?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
James Tan
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Re: Is Dependent Origination about Nama,Rupa or Nama-Rupa?

Post by James Tan » Sat Jun 16, 2018 9:07 am

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 11:15 am
Dinsdale wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:23 am
I think that "mentality-materiality" is a reasonable translation for nama-rupa. I think it is roughly equivalent to the aggregates.
I think the above idea is not relevant; as though the aggregates are something static. In other words, I personally doubt 'nama-rupa' is intended to refer to the 'five aggregates'.

'Nama' appears to be referring to mentality or mental faculties that can be engaged for the path; or otherwise drowned & enslaved by ignorance. For example, there can be wise feeling, wise perception, wise intention, wise contact & wise attention and there can be ignorant feeling, ignorant perception, ignorant intention, ignorant contact & ignorant attention. Yoniso and ayoniso manasikara (wise & unwise attention) are mentioned many times in the suttas, such as:
Lack of mindfulness and clear comprehension, too, I say, has a nutriment; it is not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for lack of mindfulness and clear comprehension? It should be said: careless attention.

AN 10.61
:candle:
Dinsdale wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:23 am
Given the physical descriptions of birth, aging and death in DO...
This has been posted many times but I think it remains unsubstantiated & unproven. I think the suttas might support the view of mental descriptions of birth, aging and death in DO; given the core notion in these descriptions is "satta"; which per SN 23.2 and SN 5.10 appears to be described as a "view". I continue to struggle to comprehend why folks view the descriptions of birth, aging and death in DO as "physical". When the mind imputes "self" or "satta" upon rupa (physicality); this does not make the imputing something physical. If aging & death were physical, why would the following discussion occur in SN 12.67?
On one occasion Ven. Sariputta and Ven. MahaKotthita were staying near Varanasi in the Deer Park at Isipatana. Then in the evening, arising from his seclusion, Ven. MahaKotthita went to Ven. Sariputta and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with him. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to Ven. Sariputta: "Now tell me, Sariputta my friend: Are aging & death self-made or other-made or both self-made & other-made, or — without self-making or other-making — do they arise spontaneously?"

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ati/tip ... .than.html
:candle:
Dinsdale wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:31 am
Some suggest feed-back loops in DO, though I don't see support for this idea in the suttas. Some interpretations are heavily focussed on the mutual dependence of consciousness and name+form, but the problem I see here is that most DO suttas don't actually describe this, rather they describe name+form arising in dependence upon consciousness.
This seems to be inferring there is a contradiction in the suttas. My impression is the mutual dependence of consciousness and nama+rupa is only mentioned in suttas (such as SN 12.67; DN 15) that don't trace back the causality to ignorance (although I have not read every sutta). In other words, these suttas target the primary cause as craving.
Does the four noble truth described psychological suffering Or Five aggregates suffering ?
If suffering only pertaining to mentally pains ,
What's all the Fusses , really ?
Some people just don't bother much about so called mind suffering , that is short-lived .
Those believed in Creator , does not think all this matter much .

The abandoning of defilements , ie the ending of greed hatred and ignorant , ultimately bring an end to cycle of birth and death which is physicality . There is No More Arising of Future six sense organ . That’s the whole point .

Assuming , after enlightenment , one is able to come back to this world which is taking new birth with a renew six sense organ .
One still goes through aging , sickness and death . Physicality suffering is still affecting us.
No ?
:reading:

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mikenz66
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Re: Is Dependent Origination about Nama,Rupa or Nama-Rupa?

Post by mikenz66 » Sat Jun 16, 2018 11:22 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 8:35 am
mikenz66 wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:03 am
But I'm not sure how one would tell whether these statements are synchronous or sequential. However, there may well be some indication in the Pali idioms that an expert could discern.
I'm referring to the general formula for conditionality in the DO suttas, which describe two modes of conditionality, I have described them as synchronous and sequential. Here for example in SN12.61:

"'When this is, that is.
"'From the arising of this comes the arising of that.
"'When this isn't, that isn't.
"'From the cessation of this comes the cessation of that.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Both modes can apply, depending on whether you view the nidanas as events ( sequential ) or as states/processes ( synchronous ). So with your example, does it make sense to say that when an instance of consciousness arises, there is an instance of name+form? Or does it make more sense to say that while the state/process of consciousness is present, then the state/process of name+form is also present? It depends of course how exactly one interprets these two nidanas, and the relationship between them.

IMO this is an example of sufficient conditionality, but it depends on interpretation.
OK, here's your example:
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.61/en/sujato#5.2--5.3
‘When this exists, that is; due to the arising of this, that arises.
‘iti imasmiṃ sati idaṃ hoti, imassuppādā idaṃ uppajjati;

When this doesn’t exist, that is not; due to the cessation of this, that ceases. That is:
imasmiṃ asati idaṃ na hoti, imassa nirodhā idaṃ nirujjhati—
That seems to combine aspects of the two examples I gave:
SN 12.1 https://suttacentral.net/sn12.1/
SN 12.49 https://suttacentral.net/sn12.49/
My Pali is not up to determining whether the first sentence here, and in the SN12.19 example mean that "this" is a sufficient condition for "that". I'm sure there's some discussion of that in some of Sylvester's posts on DO:
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=23443

In terms of sequential or synchronous, surely it depends on the link. Death cannot be synchronous with birth (unless their meanings are redefined, which of course some interpretations do...).

:heart:
Mike

Dinsdale
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Re: Is Dependent Origination about Nama,Rupa or Nama-Rupa?

Post by Dinsdale » Sun Jun 17, 2018 11:29 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 11:22 am
OK, here's your example:
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.61/en/sujato#5.2--5.3
‘When this exists, that is; due to the arising of this, that arises.
‘iti imasmiṃ sati idaṃ hoti, imassuppādā idaṃ uppajjati;

When this doesn’t exist, that is not; due to the cessation of this, that ceases. That is:
imasmiṃ asati idaṃ na hoti, imassa nirodhā idaṃ nirujjhati—
That seems to combine aspects of the two examples I gave:
SN 12.1 https://suttacentral.net/sn12.1/
SN 12.49 https://suttacentral.net/sn12.49/
My Pali is not up to determining whether the first sentence here, and in the SN12.19 example mean that "this" is a sufficient condition for "that". I'm sure there's some discussion of that in some of Sylvester's posts on DO:
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=23443

In terms of sequential or synchronous, surely it depends on the link. Death cannot be synchronous with birth (unless their meanings are redefined, which of course some interpretations do...).

:heart:
Mike
Actually I think that both modes can apply, so it isn't a case of either/or. The synchronous mode applies to states and processes, while the sequential mode applies to events.

Applying the sequential mode you could say that when birth occurs then death will occur, or that when contact arises then feeling will arise.
But using the synchronous mode you could also say that while there is a process of ( repeated ) birth there will also be a ( repeated ) process of death, or that the process of contact will lead the process of feeling.

I think this distinction of modes is quite separate from the distinction between necessary and sufficient conditions, which is a separate way of analysing the conditionality between nidanas.
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Re: Is Dependent Origination about Nama,Rupa or Nama-Rupa?

Post by justindesilva » Sun Jun 17, 2018 12:08 pm

I think this distinction of modes is quite separate from the distinction between necessary and sufficient conditions, which is a separate way of analysing the conditionality between nidanas.
[/quote]

In these discussions that Lord budda used a logic ( sequence as well as circular logic) to explain the process of samsara in sensual spheres should not be forgotten. If we try to break down this form of logic , then the meaning will not surface.

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Re: Is Dependent Origination about Nama,Rupa or Nama-Rupa?

Post by Dinsdale » Mon Jun 18, 2018 8:27 am

justindesilva wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 12:08 pm
In these discussions that Lord budda used a logic ( sequence as well as circular logic) to explain the process of samsara in sensual spheres should not be forgotten. If we try to break down this form of logic , then the meaning will not surface.
Could you elaborate on what you mean by "circular logic"?
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Re: Is Dependent Origination about Nama,Rupa or Nama-Rupa?

Post by justindesilva » Mon Jun 18, 2018 11:58 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 8:27 am
justindesilva wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 12:08 pm
In these discussions that Lord budda used a logic ( sequence as well as circular logic) to explain the process of samsara in sensual spheres should not be forgotten. If we try to break down this form of logic , then the meaning will not surface.
Could you elaborate on what you mean by "circular logic"?
eg: logic of DO goes in a circle. This logic cannot be questioned diagonally .
( However I have s minimal knowkedge in the subject of logic).

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Re: Is Dependent Origination about Nama,Rupa or Nama-Rupa?

Post by Dinsdale » Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:12 pm

justindesilva wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 11:58 am
Dinsdale wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 8:27 am
justindesilva wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 12:08 pm
In these discussions that Lord budda used a logic ( sequence as well as circular logic) to explain the process of samsara in sensual spheres should not be forgotten. If we try to break down this form of logic , then the meaning will not surface.
Could you elaborate on what you mean by "circular logic"?
eg: logic of DO goes in a circle. This logic cannot be questioned diagonally .
( However I have s minimal knowkedge in the subject of logic).
I don't think Theravada subscribes to a circular view of DO.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

justindesilva
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Re: Is Dependent Origination about Nama,Rupa or Nama-Rupa?

Post by justindesilva » Mon Jun 18, 2018 2:58 pm


I don't think Theravada subscribes to a circular view of DO.
We can start DO with any nidana , unless ceased it will end up at the same nidana. We cannot interchange the positions of nidanas too as it follows causations as conditioned as a sequence. Is this not logical.

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