Can everyone share their views on dependent origination ?

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James Tan
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Can everyone share their views on dependent origination ?

Post by James Tan » Fri Jun 08, 2018 6:05 am

Greetings ,

I was wondering if anyone can share their own understanding of how the dependent origination goes about ?
Each one explain in their own way so that one can learn from each other, what do you think ?
:reading:

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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: Can everyone share their views on dependent origination ?

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Fri Jun 08, 2018 7:01 am

This being – this comes to be
With the arising of this – this arises
This not being – this does not come to be
With the cessation of this – this ceases
http://seeingthroughthenet.net/wp-conte ... ev_1.0.pdf
not in my own words but what is well said bears repeating
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

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Re: Can everyone share their views on dependent origination ?

Post by James Tan » Fri Jun 08, 2018 7:11 am

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 7:01 am
This being – this comes to be
With the arising of this – this arises
This not being – this does not come to be
With the cessation of this – this ceases
http://seeingthroughthenet.net/wp-conte ... ev_1.0.pdf
not in my own words but what is well said bears repeating
No , I mean do explain from ignorant to death the dependent origination .
:reading:

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Re: Can everyone share their views on dependent origination ?

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Fri Jun 08, 2018 8:01 am

– Katamo ca, bhikkhave, paṭiccasamuppādo?

– And what, bhikkhus, is paṭicca-samuppāda?

Avijjā·paccayā, bhikkhave, saṅkhārā;

Conditioned by avijjā, bhikkhus, there are saṅkhāras

saṅkhāra·paccayā viññāṇaṃ;

conditioned by saṅkhāras, there is viññāṇa

viññāṇa·paccayā nāmarūpaṃ;

conditioned by viññāṇa, there is nāmarūpa

nāmarūpa·paccayā saḷāyatanaṃ;

conditioned by nāmarūpa, there are saḷāyatanas

saḷāyatana·paccayā phasso;

conditioned by saḷāyatanas, there is phassa

phassa·paccayā vedanā;

conditioned by phassa, there is vedanā

vedanā·paccayā taṇhā;

conditioned by vedanā, there is taṇhā

taṇhā·paccayā upādānaṃ;

conditioned by taṇhā, there is upādāna

upādāna·paccayā bhavo;

conditioned by upādāna, there is bhava

bhava·paccayā jāti;

conditioned by bhava, there is jāti

jāti·paccayā jarā-maraṇaṃ soka parideva dukkha domanass·upāyāsā sambhavanti. Evam·etassa kevalassa dukkha'k'khandhassa samudayo hoti.

conditioned by jāti arise jarā-maraṇa, sorrow, lamentation, dukkha, domanassa and distress. Thus arises this whole mass of dukkha.

http://www.buddha-vacana.org/sutta/samy ... 2-002.html
Avijjāya tv·eva asesa·virāga·nirodhā saṅkhāra·nirodho;

Now, with the complete virāga and nirodha of avijjā, there is the nirodha of saṅkhāra;

saṅkhāra·nirodhā viññāṇa·nirodho;

with the nirodha of saṅkhāra, there is the nirodha of viññāṇa;

viññāṇa·nirodhā nāma-rūpa·nirodho;

with the nirodha of viññāṇa, there is the nirodha of nāma-rūpa;

nāma-rūpa·nirodhā saḷāyatana·nirodho;

with the nirodha of nāma-rūpa, there is the nirodha of the saḷāyatanas;

saḷāyatana·nirodhā phassa·nirodho;

with the nirodha of the saḷāyatanas, there is the nirodha of phassa;

phassa·nirodhā vedanā·nirodho;

with the nirodha of phassa, there is the nirodha of vedanā;

vedanā·nirodhā taṇhā·nirodho;

with the nirodha of vedanā, there is the nirodha of taṇhā;

taṇhā·nirodhā upādāna·nirodho;

with the nirodha of taṇhā, there is the nirodha of upādāna;

upādāna·nirodhā bhava·nirodho;

with the nirodha of upādāna, there is the nirodha of bhava;

bhava·nirodhā jāti·nirodho;

with the nirodha of bhava, there is the nirodha of jāti;

jāti·nirodhā jarā-maraṇaṃ soka parideva dukkha domanass·upāyāsā nirujjhanti. Evam·etassa kevalassa dukkha'k'khandhassa nirodho hotī ti.

with the nirodha of jāti, jarā-maraṇa, sorrow, lamentation, dukkha, domanassa and distress come to cease. Such is the nirodha of this entire mass of dukkha.


if you go to the link, you will be able to scroll over each term in pali and they offer a definition. also the buddha within this sutta defines each link
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://sites.google.com/site/santipada ... allytaught

James Tan
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Re: Can everyone share their views on dependent origination ?

Post by James Tan » Fri Jun 08, 2018 8:03 am

In your understanding and own words .
Because everyone has different understanding .
:reading:

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Re: Can everyone share their views on dependent origination ?

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Fri Jun 08, 2018 8:15 am

Idaṃ kho pana, bhikkhave, dukkhaṃ ariya·saccaṃ: jāti·pi dukkhā, jarā·pi dukkhā (byādhi·pi dukkho) maraṇam·pi dukkhaṃ, a·p·piyehi sampayogo dukkho, piyehi vippayogo dukkho, yampicchaṃ na labhati tam·pi dukkhaṃ; saṃkhittena pañc·upādāna·k·khandhā dukkhā.

Furthermore, bhikkhus, this is the dukkha ariya·sacca: jāti is dukkha, jarā is dukkha (sickness is dukkha) maraṇa is dukkha, association with what is disliked is dukkha, dissociation from what is liked is dukkha, not to get what one wants is dukkha; in short, the five upādāna'k'khandhas are dukkha.

Idaṃ kho pana, bhikkhave, dukkha·samudayaṃ ariya·saccaṃ: Y·āyaṃ taṇhā ponobbhavikā nandi·rāga·sahagatā tatra·tatr·ābhinandinī, seyyathidaṃ: kāma·taṇhā, bhava·taṇhā, vibhava·taṇhā.

Furthermore, bhikkhus, this is the dukkha·samudaya ariya·sacca: this taṇhā leading to rebirth, connected with desire and enjoyment, finding delight here or there, that is to say: kāma-taṇhā, bhava-taṇhā and vibhava-taṇhā.

Idaṃ kho pana, bhikkhave, dukkha·nirodhaṃ ariya·saccaṃ: yo tassā·y·eva taṇhāya asesa·virāga·nirodho cāgo paṭinissaggo mutti anālayo.

Furthermore, bhikkhus, this is the dukkha·nirodha ariya·sacca: the complete virāga, nirodha, abandoning, forsaking, emancipation and freedom from that very taṇhā.

Idaṃ kho pana, bhikkhave, dukkha·nirodha·gāminī paṭipadā ariya·saccaṃ: ayam·eva ariyo aṭṭhaṅgiko maggo, seyyathidaṃ: sammā·diṭṭhi sammā·saṅkappo sammā·vācā sammā·kammanto sammā·ājīvo sammā·vāyāmo sammā·sati sammā·samādhi.

Furthermore, bhikkhus, this is the dukkha·nirodha·gāminī paṭipada ariya·sacca: just this ariya aṭṭhaṅgika magga, that is to say: sammā·diṭṭhi, sammā·saṅkappa, sammā·vācā sammā·kammanta, sammā·ājīva, sammā·vāyāma, sammā·sati and sammā·samādhi.

http://www.buddha-vacana.org/sutta/samy ... 6-011.html
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://sites.google.com/site/santipada ... allytaught

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Re: Can everyone share their views on dependent origination ?

Post by James Tan » Fri Jun 08, 2018 8:21 am

Sorry , you provide the suttas not your own personal explanation . Please elaborate for example what is ignorant . And every link
:reading:

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Re: Can everyone share their views on dependent origination ?

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Fri Jun 08, 2018 8:39 am

ignorance of the four noble truths
https://suttacentral.net/en/dn15
my own personal explanation would be memorizing what the buddha said because he explained it perfectly
it is important to find good translations
nāmarūpa for example is not well translated as 'mentality-materiality'
if you had more specific questions about particular links perhaps i could be of more help
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"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://sites.google.com/site/santipada ... allytaught

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Re: Can everyone share their views on dependent origination ?

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Jun 08, 2018 8:53 am

Greetings James,
James Tan wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 6:05 am
I was wondering if anyone can share their own understanding of how the dependent origination goes about ?
As explained by venerable Nanananda.
James Tan wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 6:05 am
Each one explain in their own way so that one can learn from each other, what do you think ?
It would be both more accurate and expedient simply to direct anyone genuinely interested in paticcasamupadda, as explained by venerable Nanananda, to venerable Nanananda's published works. Any exegesis I could give would most likely be eisegesis and/or misunderstood.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Can everyone share their views on dependent origination ?

Post by SarathW » Fri Jun 08, 2018 9:08 am

Each one explain in their own way so that one can learn from each other, what do you think ?
:reading:
Buddha said that without going to two extremes of existence and non-existence he teaches Dependent Origination.
This is a good summary for me as I see DO where ever I look.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: Can everyone share their views on dependent origination ?

Post by pilgrim » Fri Jun 08, 2018 9:16 am

James Tan wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 6:05 am
Greetings ,

I was wondering if anyone can share their own understanding of how the dependent origination goes about ?
Each one explain in their own way so that one can learn from each other, what do you think ?
My understanding is in accordance with the orthodox Theravada position. This view is very well presented by Goenka in his Day 5 talk. Watch it from 38 minutes onwards.


If you find it difficult to follow, then watch his Day 4 talk first (from 55:00 to 1.03) on the 5 aggregates which is a prerequisite to understanding Dependent Origination.

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Re: Can everyone share their views on dependent origination ?

Post by Dinsdale » Fri Jun 08, 2018 9:18 am

James Tan wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 6:05 am
I was wondering if anyone can share their own understanding of how the dependent origination goes about ?
I don't see a consensus on interpretation, just a lot of different theories, not all of which seem well supported by the nidana "definitions" in SN12.2.

Practically speaking I can notice how contact leads to feeling, and how feeling leads to craving and aversion, and associated suffering - that seems like plenty to work with! I can also notice the general conditionality and instability of what I experience.

More theoretically I think it is helpful to distinguish between necessary and sufficient conditions in DO ( eg feeling is a necessary but not sufficient condition for craving ), and also to distinguish between synchronous and sequential modes of conditionality ( "While this is, that is.." v. "When this arises, that arises..." ).
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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Re: Can everyone share their views on dependent origination ?

Post by DooDoot » Fri Jun 08, 2018 11:59 am

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 8:39 am
the buddha said because he explained it perfectly
If we don't know what the words mean, how can it be perfect?
Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 8:39 am
nāmarūpa for example is not well translated as 'mentality-materiality'
'Mentality-materiality' ('mind-body) appears to be a perfectly valid translation for feeling, perception, intention, contact, attention and the form composed of earth, wind, fire and water because quite obviously there is a mind-body, polluted by ignorance, that seeks external gratification via the external sense organs. If nama-rupa is not 'mind-body' then there is no 'mind-body' that participates in the origination of suffering.
The "Long" Discourses (Pali digha = "long") consists of 34 suttas, including the longest ones in the Canon. The subject matter of these suttas ranges widely, from colorful folkloric accounts of the beings inhabiting the deva worlds (DN 20) to down-to-earth practical meditation instructions (DN 22), and everything in between. Recent scholarship suggests that a distinguishing trait of the Digha Nikaya may be that it was "intended for the purpose of propaganda, to attract converts to the new religion.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sutta.html
Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 8:39 am
if you had more specific questions about particular links perhaps i could be of more help
:popcorn:

DN 15 appears to define nama-rupa the same as Brahmanism, namely, "the permutations, signs, themes, and indicators by which there is a description of name-group and form-group". DN 15 then says: "If consciousness were not to descend into the mother's womb, would name-and-form take shape in the womb"...

Q 1. Does the embryo in the mother's womb engage in "describing" or "shaping" with permutations, signs, themes and indicators by which there is a description of name-group and form-group?
If consciousness were not conceived in the mother’s womb, would name and form coagulate there?

https://suttacentral.net/dn15/en/sujato

coagulate. verb (kəʊˈæɡjʊˌleɪt) to cause (a fluid, such as blood) to change into a soft semisolid mass or (of such a fluid) to change into such a mass; clot; curdle. chem to separate or cause to separate into distinct constituent phases
Q 2. Why would DN 15 refer to "miscarriage of name-&-form"? How are descriptions of name-group and form-group subject to "miscarriage" and "abortion"? Is aborting a "name" a transgression of the 1st precept? :shrug:
“If consciousness, after being conceived in the mother’s womb, were to be miscarried, would name and form be born into this state of existence?”

https://suttacentral.net/dn15/en/sujato
Q 3. What is the naming-form that does not achieve growth & maturity if the consciousness of a boy or girl is cut off?
“If the consciousness of a young boy or girl were to be cut off, would name and form achieve growth, increase, and maturity?”
Q 4. After describing the interaction between consciousness & nama-rupa, why does DN 15 start referring to "descriptions of self"? Does an embryo engage in descriptions of "self" in the womb?
How do those who describe the self describe it?

They describe it as physical and limited:

‘My self is physical and limited.’

Or they describe it as physical and infinite:

‘My self is physical and infinite.’

Or they describe it as formless and limited:

‘My self is formless and limited.’

https://suttacentral.net/dn15/en/sujato

:shrug:
Last edited by DooDoot on Fri Jun 08, 2018 12:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Can everyone share their views on dependent origination ?

Post by Bundokji » Fri Jun 08, 2018 12:51 pm

I think any interpretation would necessitate a starting point, but when we say: dependent origination, it is a construct in which each part depends on the other.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

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Re: Can everyone share their views on dependent origination ?

Post by Zom » Fri Jun 08, 2018 4:28 pm

I was wondering if anyone can share their own understanding of how the dependent origination goes about ?
From my perspective, general misconception about DO 12-link scheme is that this is a solid, closed, very specific model with one deep incomprehensible and extremely complicated meaning. Well, it is not. If you read suttas, there are 2-link models, 3-link models, 5... 10... more than 12 link models. Some links are moved here and there or replaced by something else. What important in this scheme is:

1) basic principle of conditionality, which helps to understand anatta concept and thus establish oneself in right "middle" views
2) that one link, namarupa <--> vinnyana which particularly shows the anattness of consciousness. This is the deepest point of DO, hardest to see. This is that liberating insight one must get with his jhanic vipassana. The key to arahantship.
3) the general idea about how samsara keeps moving on.

Everyhing else is minor details and not really important.

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