Bundles of reeds simile.

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James Tan
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Re: Bundles of reeds simile.

Post by James Tan » Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:07 pm

Saengnapha wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 4:40 am

We have monks like Buddhadasa talking about practicing at the level of contact, subjugating the 5 aggregates and not allowing feeling to arise and give rise to craving. That alone is almost impossible for most to do or comprehend.

The practice is not about not allowing feeling to arise . But , to observe the arising and passing away of the aggregates and in that the insight arises which resulting in right view and cut off the craving therefore the ending of defilements .
:reading:

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Re: Bundles of reeds simile.

Post by mikenz66 » Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:50 pm

Saengnapha wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:46 am
If you've read my posts, I don't make that claim. In fact, I hope there are others for the sake of mankind, but I am on the pessimistic side when it comes to Buddhism in its current forms. . .
That does sound pessimistic. I have no more useful input, in that case.

Best Wishes.

:heart:
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Re: Bundles of reeds simile.

Post by SarathW » Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:34 pm

How is it possible to explain dependent origination
Why did Buddha teach Dependent Origination?
What is the purpose?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: Bundles of reeds simile.

Post by Saengnapha » Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:59 am

James Tan wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:07 pm
Saengnapha wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 4:40 am

We have monks like Buddhadasa talking about practicing at the level of contact, subjugating the 5 aggregates and not allowing feeling to arise and give rise to craving. That alone is almost impossible for most to do or comprehend.

The practice is not about not allowing feeling to arise . But , to observe the arising and passing away of the aggregates and in that the insight arises which resulting in right view and cut off the craving therefore the ending of defilements .
The exact quote is this: "it entails rigorous cultivation such that when there is Contact in the sense base, Right Mindfulness is applied to subjugate Feeling, thus preventing its advance to Craving, Clinging, and Existence/Birth. In actual practice, a term such as “dependent origination” is unnecessary. "

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retrofuturist
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Re: Bundles of reeds simile.

Post by retrofuturist » Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:17 am

Greetings Sarath,
SarathW wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:34 pm
How is it possible to explain dependent origination
Why did Buddha teach Dependent Origination?
What is the purpose?
( Same answer as above... )

Dependent origination explains an ignorant mis-understanding of emptiness, and its consequences.
In cessation mode, it explains that when that ignorant misunderstanding ceases, "origination" based upon it ceases too.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Bundles of reeds simile.

Post by cappuccino » Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:43 am

Dependent Origination is a context.

Cultivating impermanence is the practice.

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Re: Bundles of reeds simile.

Post by retrofuturist » Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 am

Greetings,
cappuccino wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:43 am
Cultivating impermanence is the practice.
How do you "cultivate impermanence" when all fabricated dhammas are impermanent anyway, with or without your practice?

:shrug:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Bundles of reeds simile.

Post by justindesilva » Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:12 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 am
Greetings,
cappuccino wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:43 am
Cultivating impermanence is the practice.
How do you "cultivate impermanence" when all fabricated dhammas are impermanent anyway, with or without your practice?

:shrug:

Metta,
Paul. :)
We do not have to cultivate impermanace. ( Anitya). We are living with it , as explained in Dammacakka pavattana sutta. Cultivation of living with it is our concern , as explained in 3rd and 4th noble truths. Such cultivation which is moral development is made through following the noble eightfold path.

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Re: Bundles of reeds simile.

Post by mikenz66 » Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:52 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:59 am
James Tan wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:07 pm
Saengnapha wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 4:40 am

We have monks like Buddhadasa talking about practicing at the level of contact, subjugating the 5 aggregates and not allowing feeling to arise and give rise to craving. That alone is almost impossible for most to do or comprehend.

The practice is not about not allowing feeling to arise . But , to observe the arising and passing away of the aggregates and in that the insight arises which resulting in right view and cut off the craving therefore the ending of defilements .
The exact quote is this: "it entails rigorous cultivation such that when there is Contact in the sense base, Right Mindfulness is applied to subjugate Feeling, thus preventing its advance to Craving, Clinging, and Existence/Birth. In actual practice, a term such as “dependent origination” is unnecessary. "
That's apparently Ajahn Buddhadasa's interpretation, if the translation is accurate (it says "translated from Chinese, and presumably it was originally spoken in Thai...):
https://www.dhammatalks.net/Books6/Bhik ... uppada.htm

Earlier in the paragraph the translation reads:
it teaches awareness of Contacts at the sense bases to prevent Feeling from advancing to Craving.
That sounds less controversial: if one has good awareness, one notices the arising of feeling and has more choice over what follows.

:heart:
Mike

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Re: Bundles of reeds simile.

Post by mikenz66 » Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:02 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:17 am
Dependent origination explains an ignorant mis-understanding of emptiness, and its consequences.
Hi retro, would you mind explaining in detail the meaning of this brief passage?

Are you using emptiness in this sense? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%9A%C5 ... of_dhammas
It is said that the world is empty, the world is empty, lord. In what respect is it said that the world is empty?" The Buddha replied, "Insofar as it is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self: Thus it is said, Ānanda, that the world is empty.
https://suttacentral.net/sn35.85/
Obviously DO explains how ignorance leads to suffering. And all that arises is empty of self. But I'm intrigued by your wording...

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retrofuturist
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Re: Bundles of reeds simile.

Post by retrofuturist » Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:04 am

Greetings Mike,

Next time I am at a PC, I will... because I want to source some quotes - definitely from Nanavira, but possibly others too.

If I happen to forget, don't hesitate to remind me.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Bundles of reeds simile.

Post by cappuccino » Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:27 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 am
How do you "cultivate impermanence"?

“Perceiving impermanence, bhikkhus, developed and frequently practised, removes all sensual desire, removes all desire for material existence, removes all desire for becoming, removes all ignorance, and tears out all conceit of ’I am.’”

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Re: Bundles of reeds simile.

Post by Saengnapha » Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:44 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:52 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:59 am
James Tan wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:07 pm


The practice is not about not allowing feeling to arise . But , to observe the arising and passing away of the aggregates and in that the insight arises which resulting in right view and cut off the craving therefore the ending of defilements .
The exact quote is this: "it entails rigorous cultivation such that when there is Contact in the sense base, Right Mindfulness is applied to subjugate Feeling, thus preventing its advance to Craving, Clinging, and Existence/Birth. In actual practice, a term such as “dependent origination” is unnecessary. "
That's apparently Ajahn Buddhadasa's interpretation, if the translation is accurate (it says "translated from Chinese, and presumably it was originally spoken in Thai...):
https://www.dhammatalks.net/Books6/Bhik ... uppada.htm

Earlier in the paragraph the translation reads:
it teaches awareness of Contacts at the sense bases to prevent Feeling from advancing to Craving.
That sounds less controversial: if one has good awareness, one notices the arising of feeling and has more choice over what follows.

:heart:
Mike
I don't see much difference in the two quotes, personally. Have you read Buddhadasa's essay on the two ways of interpretation? One is people language, the other is dhamma language. The difference in interpretation according to him lies in the difference between these two ways of speaking. The Buddha spoke in both, hence the need for re-interpretive language to explain Dhamma. Buddhadasa was a kind of reformer or at least pointed out the need to reform Theravada and re-interpret his teachings. He was quite against Buddhaghosa's interpretations which have ruled Theravada since. But, you probably know all this already.

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Re: Bundles of reeds simile.

Post by mikenz66 » Wed Jun 13, 2018 5:51 am

Yes I'm aware of Buddhadasa's views. They are intersting and somewhat unique.

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Re: Bundles of reeds simile.

Post by Dinsdale » Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:12 am

James Tan wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:44 am
One thing is as Dinsdale said . How is it possible to explain dependent origination when everyone has different understanding and interpretation such as sankhara , consciousness , namarupa etc etc and express and present it ?
Indeed, and as I observed, most DO suttas don't actually describe a mutual dependence of consciousness and name+form.

I tend to go with the nidana "definitions" in SN12.2, given that SN12 is the main treatment of DO in the suttas. You can make DO mean pretty anything you want by moving away from these definitions, but this often seems the result of peoples' attachment to a particular theory, it ends up with square pegs and round holes, a bit of a mess.

In any case think it's worth remembering that DO is an elaboration of the Second Noble Truth.
Last edited by Dinsdale on Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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