Bundles of reeds simile.

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SarathW
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Bundles of reeds simile.

Post by SarathW » Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:38 pm

Split from: viewtopic.php?f=27&t=31297&start=15#p475610
Suppose there were two bundles of reeds leaning up against each other
Thanks Mike.
Can we apply the same simile to other limbs?
Say Avijja and Sankhara.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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mikenz66
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Re: Bundles of reeds simile.

Post by mikenz66 » Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:36 am

Can you explain your reasoning for suggesting that pair?

Note that they are not mentioned in that particular sutta that contains the Bundles of Reeds simile. It only goes back to consciousness and name-and-form:
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.67/en/sujato
Suppose there were two bundles of reeds leaning up against each other. In the same way, name and form are conditions for consciousness. Consciousness is a condition for name and form. Name and form are conditions for the six sense fields. The six sense fields are conditions for contact. … That is how this entire mass of suffering originates. If the first of those bundles of reeds were to be pulled away, the other would collapse. And if the other were to be pulled away, the first would collapse. In the same way, when name and form cease, consciousness ceases. When consciousness ceases, name and form cease. When name and form cease, the six sense fields cease. When the six sense fields cease, contact ceases. … That is how this entire mass of suffering ceases.”
As opposed to the suttas that mention Avijja and Sankhara (ignorance and choices in this translation):
When ignorance fades away and ceases with nothing left over, choices cease. When choices cease, consciousness ceases. When consciousness ceases, name and form cease. When name and form cease, the six sense fields cease. When the six sense fields cease, contact ceases. When contact ceases, feeling ceases. When feeling ceases, craving ceases. When craving ceases, grasping ceases. When grasping ceases, continued existence ceases. When continued existence ceases, rebirth ceases. When rebirth ceases, old age and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, sadness, and distress cease. That is how this entire mass of suffering ceases.”
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.1/en/sujato
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Mike

SarathW
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Re: Bundles of reeds simile.

Post by SarathW » Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:00 am

Can you explain your reasoning for suggesting that pair?
The way I understand you can break any link of the dependent origination and the rest will fall apart.

“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: Bundles of reeds simile.

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:11 am

From the uprising of the cankers is the uprising of ignorance,
from the stopping of the cankers is the stopping of ignorance
[...]
From the uprising of ignorance is the uprising of the cankers,
from the stopping of ignorance is the stopping of the cankers

http://obo.genaud.net/dhamma-vinaya/pts ... rn.pts.htm
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

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mikenz66
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Re: Bundles of reeds simile.

Post by mikenz66 » Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:14 am

SarathW wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:00 am
Can you explain your reasoning for suggesting that pair?
The way I understand you can break any link of the dependent origination and the rest will fall apart.
That's a different issue!
Is there a sutta that states that?

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Mike

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mikenz66
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Re: Bundles of reeds simile.

Post by mikenz66 » Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:16 am

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:11 am
From the uprising of the cankers is the uprising of ignorance,
from the stopping of the cankers is the stopping of ignorance
[...]
From the uprising of ignorance is the uprising of the cankers,
from the stopping of ignorance is the stopping of the cankers

http://obo.genaud.net/dhamma-vinaya/pts ... rn.pts.htm
Can you explain the connection of this quote to the topic?

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Re: Bundles of reeds simile.

Post by SarathW » Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:32 am

Is there a sutta that states that?
No but I can recall a monk talking like that.
We can look at DO and see this for ourselves. There are different Sutta to say that you can end Samsar in different stages.

Through ignorance are conditioned volitional actions or kamma-formations.
Through volitional actions is conditioned consciousness.
Through consciousness are conditioned mental and physical phenomena.
Through mental and physical phenomena are conditioned the six faculties(i.e., five physical sense-organs and mind).
Through the six faculties is conditioned (sensorial and mental) contact.
Through (sensorial and mental)contact is conditioned sensation.
Through sensation is conditioned desire, 'thirst".
Through desire ('thirst') is conditioned clinging.
Through clinging is conditioned the process of becoming.
Through the process of becoming is conditioned birth.
Through birth are conditioned decay, death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair.

https://www.budsas.org/ebud/whatbudbeliev/106.htm
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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retrofuturist
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Re: Bundles of reeds simile.

Post by retrofuturist » Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:59 am

Greetings Sarath,
SarathW wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:38 pm
Can we apply the same simile to other limbs?
Say Avijja and Sankhara.
No, because for the other nidanas in paticcasamuppada, one factor is dependent upon the one prior for its arising.

Nama-rupa & vinnana are the exception to this rule, for they are actually co-dependent upon one another for its arising... hence the simile.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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DooDoot
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Re: Bundles of reeds simile.

Post by DooDoot » Thu Jun 07, 2018 2:04 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:59 am
No, because for the other nidanas in paticcasamuppada, one factor is dependent upon the one prior for its arising.

Nama-rupa & vinnana are the exception to this rule, for they are actually co-dependent upon one another for its arising... hence the simile.
:thumbsup:
Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:11 am
From the uprising of the cankers is the uprising of ignorance,
from the stopping of the cankers is the stopping of ignorance
[...]
From the uprising of ignorance is the uprising of the cankers,
from the stopping of ignorance is the stopping of the cankers

http://obo.genaud.net/dhamma-vinaya/pts ... rn.pts.htm
The above appears to be one condition rather than two conditions. In other words, the "cankers" ("asava") are "ignorance" and are not "sankhara".
Your reverences, there are these three (kinds of) formations:

Activity [activators] of the body,
activity [activators] of speech,
activity [activators] of mind.

Your reverences, there are these three cankers:

The canker of sense-pleasures [sensuality],
the canker of [past] becoming,
the canker of ignorance.
Last edited by DooDoot on Thu Jun 07, 2018 2:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

SarathW
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Re: Bundles of reeds simile.

Post by SarathW » Thu Jun 07, 2018 2:15 am

Nama-rupa & vinnana are the exception to this rule, for they are actually co-dependent upon one another for its arising... hence the simile.
I see your point but what about Aurpavacara beings?
They said to have only Nama, no Rupa?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: Bundles of reeds simile.

Post by retrofuturist » Thu Jun 07, 2018 2:18 am

Greetings Sarath,
SarathW wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 2:15 am
Nama-rupa & vinnana are the exception to this rule, for they are actually co-dependent upon one another for its arising... hence the simile.
I see your point but what about Aurpavacara beings?
They said to have only Nama, no Rupa?
Others may disagree with me, but I believe you're conflating two different senses of the word "rupa"... (i.e. materiality and form)

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

SarathW
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Re: Bundles of reeds simile.

Post by SarathW » Thu Jun 07, 2018 2:25 am

one factor is dependent upon the one prior for its arising.
Ok.
What you are saying is only way to attain Nibbana is to eliminate ignorance?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: Bundles of reeds simile.

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Thu Jun 07, 2018 2:26 am

Can you explain the connection of this quote to the topic?

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Mike
aññamañña paccayatā – mutual conditionality
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

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Re: Bundles of reeds simile.

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Thu Jun 07, 2018 2:27 am

two different senses of the word "rupa"... (i.e. materiality and form)

Metta,
Paul. :)
???
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://sites.google.com/site/santipada ... allytaught

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DooDoot
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Re: Bundles of reeds simile.

Post by DooDoot » Thu Jun 07, 2018 2:28 am

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 2:26 am
aññamañña paccayatā – mutual conditionality
The quote posted was contextually wrong. MN 9 was misunderstood.
SarathW wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 2:15 am
what about Aurpavacara beings? They said to have only Nama, no Rupa?
Please post an example from the suttas (but not from the DN). Thanks

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