I have a dream today ~ 2 type of freedom

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
SarathW
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Re: I have a dream today ~ 2 type of freedom

Post by SarathW » Sun May 27, 2018 7:22 am

not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character.
This is very close to what Buddha said.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

binocular
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Re: I have a dream today ~ 2 type of freedom

Post by binocular » Sun May 27, 2018 7:38 am

James Tan wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 7:10 am
One will never know if the monk would regard audience ready or not .
Indeed.
Have you been to any dhamma talk before ?
I've listened to many, but was never personally present for one.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

Saengnapha
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Re: I have a dream today ~ 2 type of freedom

Post by Saengnapha » Mon May 28, 2018 4:35 am

binocular wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 7:38 am
James Tan wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 7:10 am
One will never know if the monk would regard audience ready or not .
Indeed.
Have you been to any dhamma talk before ?
I've listened to many, but was never personally present for one.
May I ask why not? It would seem ironic for someone who is interested in Buddhism to not rub shoulders with others who are and who teach it. Perhaps you are an indentured servant at this time? :D

binocular
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Re: I have a dream today ~ 2 type of freedom

Post by binocular » Mon May 28, 2018 3:31 pm

Saengnapha wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 4:35 am
May I ask why not? It would seem ironic for someone who is interested in Buddhism to not rub shoulders with others who are and who teach it. Perhaps you are an indentured servant at this time?
Respect. I'm civilized like that.

When on someone else's turf, respect their rules. You said you live in Thailand. Then you probably know how utterly, grossly disrespectful, offensive, condemning-oneself-to-aeons-in-hell it is to ask a monk or a lay practitioner senior to oneself questions that may be regarded by them as inappropriate, or say other things that may by them be regarded as inappropriate.

To hell with your own doubts, and questions, and stuff you're struggling with. Respect comes first.

One doesn't just go and talk to a monk. Especially not when one is female. I had to learn this the hard way.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

Saengnapha
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Re: I have a dream today ~ 2 type of freedom

Post by Saengnapha » Mon May 28, 2018 4:59 pm

binocular wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 3:31 pm
Saengnapha wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 4:35 am
May I ask why not? It would seem ironic for someone who is interested in Buddhism to not rub shoulders with others who are and who teach it. Perhaps you are an indentured servant at this time?
Respect. I'm civilized like that.

When on someone else's turf, respect their rules. You said you live in Thailand. Then you probably know how utterly, grossly disrespectful, offensive, condemning-oneself-to-aeons-in-hell it is to ask a monk or a lay practitioner senior to oneself questions that may be regarded by them as inappropriate, or say other things that may by them be regarded as inappropriate.

To hell with your own doubts, and questions, and stuff you're struggling with. Respect comes first.

One doesn't just go and talk to a monk. Especially not when one is female. I had to learn this the hard way.
I know several Thai women who all have monks that they go to talk to. They've developed relationships with them and I"ve never heard any of them complain about how they act towards them. Thais are usually not uptight about these things. They are not stiff like Euros tend to be. You seem quite angry, in general. Maybe you have a tough life, I don't know. Maybe you just think too much.

binocular
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Re: I have a dream today ~ 2 type of freedom

Post by binocular » Mon May 28, 2018 5:08 pm

Saengnapha wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 4:59 pm
I know several Thai women who all have monks that they go to talk to. They've developed relationships with them and I"ve never heard any of them complain about how they act towards them. Thais are usually not uptight about these things. They are not stiff like Euros tend to be. You seem quite angry, in general. Maybe you have a tough life, I don't know. Maybe you just think too much.
I'm not complaining. I think it's a dog-eat-dog world and that life sucks. It's just how it is. If a monk were to spit at me, I'd shrug my shoulders.
I didn't even know my skin had color until I met some Asians. Then, it suddenly began to matter that I'm white, and thus somehow eminently disqualified from making any relevant spiritual progress. I think race does make a difference. I've no doubt that the Thais feel good around other Thais. But I doubt they do with whites, or at least with white females. For those Asians I know, my being white was an issue.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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Sam Vara
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Re: I have a dream today ~ 2 type of freedom

Post by Sam Vara » Mon May 28, 2018 5:10 pm

binocular wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 3:31 pm

Respect. I'm civilized like that.

When on someone else's turf, respect their rules. You said you live in Thailand. Then you probably know how utterly, grossly disrespectful, offensive, condemning-oneself-to-aeons-in-hell it is to ask a monk or a lay practitioner senior to oneself questions that may be regarded by them as inappropriate, or say other things that may by them be regarded as inappropriate.

To hell with your own doubts, and questions, and stuff you're struggling with. Respect comes first.

One doesn't just go and talk to a monk. Especially not when one is female. I had to learn this the hard way.
I can't speak for Saengnapha, but even if that were true why would Thai practices bother you? In the UK, monks - Western, Thai, and Sri Lankan - are regularly approached by people and asked questions. Unless they are very busy, or unless they are on retreat, I've never known them to do anything other than answer the person's questions as best they can. I've never known them to be offended, even when the person approaching them does not know the "correct" etiquette, or is coarse and rude in their approach. Sometimes they have been a bit nonplussed, but they have not acted in such a way as to increase the difficulty. If you are smart and socially-skilled enough to buy yourself a computer and connect to the internet, then you should not have the slightest difficulty in asking a monk a question.

Where did the "Aeons-in-hell" stuff come from? It seems a bit extreme, even for dramatic hyperbole.

binocular
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Re: I have a dream today ~ 2 type of freedom

Post by binocular » Mon May 28, 2018 5:20 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 5:10 pm
I can't speak for Saengnapha, but even if that were true why would Thai practices bother you?
They don't bother me.

It's that if I sign up for Theravada, then there's a number of things that come with that and that I must agree with, condone, accept.
How do I trust someone and consider them my teacher, when that person doesn't even know my name, nor cares whether I live or die?
Because this is the prospect for me: Trust someone and consider them my teacher, even when that person doesn't even know my name, nor cares whether I live or die; or make no progress. It's this prospect that I resent, but I don't exlcude the possibility that it's something I must simply accept.
If you are smart and socially-skilled enough to buy yourself a computer and connect to the internet, then you should not have the slightest difficulty in asking a monk a question.
But the respect! The respect!
Where did the "Aeons-in-hell" stuff come from? It seems a bit extreme, even for dramatic hyperbole.
Granted, that was through an English Theravada monk.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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Sam Vara
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Re: I have a dream today ~ 2 type of freedom

Post by Sam Vara » Mon May 28, 2018 5:46 pm

binocular wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 5:20 pm


It's that if I sign up for Theravada, then there's a number of things that come with that and that I must agree with, condone, accept.
How do I trust someone and consider them my teacher, when that person doesn't even know my name, nor cares whether I live or die?
Because this is the prospect for me: Trust someone and consider them my teacher, even when that person doesn't even know my name, nor cares whether I live or die; or make no progress. It's this prospect that I resent, but I don't exlcude the possibility that it's something I must simply accept.
I think that the majority of lay people who are undertaking some sort of practice derived from Theravadan teachers don't "sign up" to one teacher. That's not how it normally works. You might want instead to take responsibility for your own learning and practice. Find aspects that appeal to you or seem to make sense, and then try living them out. As Ajahn Chah's famous quote has it "Everything is teaching us". Reconcile yourself that you are unlikely to find someone for whom your liberation is as important as it is for you. That's just being adult about it, rather than complaining that you can't find the sort of parent that you want.

binocular
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Re: I have a dream today ~ 2 type of freedom

Post by binocular » Mon May 28, 2018 6:06 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 5:46 pm
You might want instead to take responsibility for your own learning and practice.
If I do that, I will cut myself off from Buddhism altogether, and earn myself the contempt of many (more).
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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Sam Vara
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Re: I have a dream today ~ 2 type of freedom

Post by Sam Vara » Mon May 28, 2018 7:21 pm

binocular wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 6:06 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 5:46 pm
You might want instead to take responsibility for your own learning and practice.
If I do that, I will cut myself off from Buddhism altogether, and earn myself the contempt of many (more).
If you took responsibility for your own learning and practice, you would be doing precisely what the Buddha recommended. By continually blaming yourself and other people, you would be aligning yourself to a view that is alien to what the Buddha taught.

Saengnapha
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Re: I have a dream today ~ 2 type of freedom

Post by Saengnapha » Tue May 29, 2018 2:17 am

binocular wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 5:08 pm
Saengnapha wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 4:59 pm
I know several Thai women who all have monks that they go to talk to. They've developed relationships with them and I"ve never heard any of them complain about how they act towards them. Thais are usually not uptight about these things. They are not stiff like Euros tend to be. You seem quite angry, in general. Maybe you have a tough life, I don't know. Maybe you just think too much.
I'm not complaining. I think it's a dog-eat-dog world and that life sucks. It's just how it is. If a monk were to spit at me, I'd shrug my shoulders.
I didn't even know my skin had color until I met some Asians. Then, it suddenly began to matter that I'm white, and thus somehow eminently disqualified from making any relevant spiritual progress. I think race does make a difference. I've no doubt that the Thais feel good around other Thais. But I doubt they do with whites, or at least with white females. For those Asians I know, my being white was an issue.
You seem very caught up in the complications of thinking. All these things you bring up are floating around in your brain and disturbing you. Why hold on to all this stuff you bring up? You constantly re-hash the same complaints. It is only your own thinking that is creating all your problems. What are you going to do about it?

James Tan
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Re: I have a dream today ~ 2 type of freedom

Post by James Tan » Tue May 29, 2018 5:10 am

Unfortunately this is a god forsaken world . A miserable place and nothing is worthwhile at the end . Even Buddha himself forsaken this world. The only way out is striving towards liberation so to speak .
:reading:

Saengnapha
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Re: I have a dream today ~ 2 type of freedom

Post by Saengnapha » Tue May 29, 2018 5:27 am

James Tan wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 5:10 am
Unfortunately this is a god forsaken world . A miserable place and nothing is worthwhile at the end . Even Buddha himself forsaken this world. The only way out is striving towards liberation so to speak .
I think we call this escapism.

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robertk
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Re: I have a dream today ~ 2 type of freedom

Post by robertk » Tue May 29, 2018 6:49 am

binocular wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 6:06 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 5:46 pm
You might want instead to take responsibility for your own learning and practice.
If I do that, I will cut myself off from Buddhism altogether, and earn myself the contempt of many (more).
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .vaji.html
"Therefore, Ananda, be islands unto yourselves, refuges unto yourselves, seeking no external refuge; with the Dhamma as your island, the Dhamma as your refuge, seeking no other refuge."

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