I have a dream today ~ 2 type of freedom

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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DooDoot
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Re: I have a dream today ~ 2 type of freedom

Post by DooDoot »

James Tan wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 4:38 amIBut , in reality of our society , fighting and aspiring for true equality rights and freedom from all type of discriminations is essential to achieve present life happiness .
Martin Luther King was 50 years ago and not today. I think those fighting today in society are generally fighting for privileges & power.
James Tan wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 4:38 amHowever , Buddhism in its essence is striving against the mainstream of worldly establishment . If a person aim is wanting to abandon all worldly enjoyment , the need to accomplish anything is but worthless effort at the end of the day. Does this mean that the Buddha's teaching will always remain as a secondary movement or even cease to be of any role to human being in the platform of the world eventually ?
Yes, probably. :meditate: In the Pali suttas, it is reported the Buddha never taught Mahayana (saving all sentient beings).
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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sentinel
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Re: I have a dream today ~ 2 type of freedom

Post by sentinel »

binocular wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 8:58 am
James Tan wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 8:51 am
binocular wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 7:58 am
I don't think there's a lack of interest to disseminate the Buddha's teaching. I think it's that the Buddha's teaching is so specific, requires such personal qualifications that simply only very few people can qualify and keep up.
I don't know about your experiences but I have been twice told , once by one Mahayana monk whom told me not to pose question and another Theravada monk addresses to audience don't ask about four noble truth, this is too deep and profound for you all. Just observe your five precepts .
Of course one more thing for sure is many people could not grasp or catch up and also not interested with the Buddha's teaching .
What you say illustrates that the monks didn't lack the interest to disseminate the Buddha's teaching, but thought that the people weren't qualified.
Nope , your assumption not correct , you don't know him and the actual situation and this was his perception which is wrong .
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Re: I have a dream today ~ 2 type of freedom

Post by sentinel »

DooDoot wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 9:00 am
James Tan wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 4:38 amIBut , in reality of our society , fighting and aspiring for true equality rights and freedom from all type of discriminations is essential to achieve present life happiness .
Martin Luther King was 50 years ago and not today. I think those fighting today in society are generally fighting for privileges & power.
James Tan wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 4:38 amHowever , Buddhism in its essence is striving against the mainstream of worldly establishment . If a person aim is wanting to abandon all worldly enjoyment , the need to accomplish anything is but worthless effort at the end of the day. Does this mean that the Buddha's teaching will always remain as a secondary movement or even cease to be of any role to human being in the platform of the world eventually ?
Yes, probably. :meditate: In the Pali suttas, it is reported the Buddha never taught Mahayana (saving all sentient beings).
Do you think third world countries are fighting for privileges ?
Please man , I am not talking about Mahayana at all or saving all beings . Perhaps buddhist can be more proactive .
Last edited by sentinel on Sat May 26, 2018 9:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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binocular
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Re: I have a dream today ~ 2 type of freedom

Post by binocular »

James Tan wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 9:11 amNope , your assumption not correct , you don't know him and the actual situation and this was his perception which is wrong .
Why would a monk's perception on this be wrong? Who else decides whether someone is qualified for Buddhism or not?
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DooDoot
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Re: I have a dream today ~ 2 type of freedom

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James Tan wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 9:13 amDo you think third world countries are fighting for privileges ?
I don't see many third world countries fighting. All I see is corruption & exploitation in third world countries.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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sentinel
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Re: I have a dream today ~ 2 type of freedom

Post by sentinel »

binocular wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 9:15 am
James Tan wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 9:11 amNope , your assumption not correct , you don't know him and the actual situation and this was his perception which is wrong .
Why would a monk's perception on this be wrong? Who else decides whether someone is qualified for Buddhism or not?
Because both was giving talk on that occasion but one of them was conducted in a perfunctory manner. Another also not keen at all . How would a monk not take this opportunity to address the public to further their understanding , what is the point to conduct for a dhamma talk in the first place ?
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Re: I have a dream today ~ 2 type of freedom

Post by sentinel »

DooDoot wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 9:21 am
James Tan wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 9:13 amDo you think third world countries are fighting for privileges ?
I don't see many third world countries fighting. All I see is corruption & exploitation in third world countries.
OK, your focus point could be giving you different perspective . The other day I saw you posted your parents pictures in another thread , would you mind telling me which country your parents originated ?
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DooDoot
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Re: I have a dream today ~ 2 type of freedom

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James Tan wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 9:34 amThe other day I saw you posted your parents pictures in another thread , would you mind telling me which country your parents originated ?
My father emigrated to Australia from Lebanon (where he lived during WW2) in 1947 due to poverty caused by WW2. He was fair skinned, green eyed with golden brown hair (which probably allowed him to pass the 'White Australia Policy') & was trained in carpentry during WW2 with the Australia army, who were stationed in Lebanon. He was the only member of his family who had a job. They ate one meal per day. He had a job due to Western imperialism but also starved due to Western imperialism. He emigrated to a British colony (Australia; which harmed greatly the native people). Generally, from the 1850s, Lebanese people emigrated from Lebanon/Syria due to the impacts of British Imperialism. My father's family emigrated from Lebanon to Canada when my father was 2 years old. My two uncles & aunty were born in Canada. But because of the Great Depression, they have to leave Canada. They went to Spain to live with family but due to the Spanish Civil War in 1936 eventually ended up again in Lebanon prior to WW2. My mother was better off in Lebanon because her family had a large amount of land which they grew food on. My father's family lived next door to my mothers; who would given them food. My mother visited Australia in 1958 to visit her sister and ended up marrying my father.
James Tan wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 9:34 amOK, your focus point could be giving you different perspective .
I think my perspective, as with most of my political posts, is social change is difficult and individual change is important. Most of my political posts are about how we, as individuals, can help improve the world by not supporting false & evil politicians (such as Hillary Clinton or Donald Trump). Personally, I think individual change & individual empowerment is important.

Martin Luther King achieved a lot but also had his corruptions. I suppose what I am saying is today people (such as Feminists, LGBT, etc) are not fighting for rights. They are fighting for power. There is a difference. Today, the poorer people of the world are being walked upon and have few political activists representing them. This is because the political activists are often after privileges & power for themselves.

:smile:
Last edited by DooDoot on Sat May 26, 2018 10:09 am, edited 8 times in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Sam Vara
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Re: I have a dream today ~ 2 type of freedom

Post by Sam Vara »

Saengnapha wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 8:07 am It's very possible that the private affair of working it out only begins once we have met someone who has resolved suffering.
Possible, yes, but until we can say with certainty that it is the only way, then it's also possible that other paths suit different people. That what you refer to as the "jetsam and flotsam" is equally valid.
Then, when you do meet someone who is not suffering, it becomes a matter of discussion and reflection on this subject of what is the cause of suffering. It is not a matter of conforming or converting to any belief system in existence. It is not even a matter of having something to practice over and over again.
Here's a thing. I know several Theravadan monks, and ex-monks, who knew Ajahn Chah. Some of them say that he was not suffering; that he was an arahant, or close to arahantship. As a result of meeting him, they committed to all those things that you say are unnecessary, and indeed Ajahn Chah actively encouraged them over a number of years. They conformed. They converted to a belief system. They practised the same thing over and over again.

I find their accounts of this process - what Ajahn Chah was like, and why they thought they had to practice - to be far more convincing than your accounts of your gurus. That's not to discount what you say, of course - good luck to you. Nor is it to say that their accounts are what motivate me to practice in the way I do.

What it does mean, though, is that attempts to portray other religions, paths, or approaches as "jetsam and flotsam", or otherwise denigrate them, need to be more cogent than you are currently achieving.
sentinel
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Re: I have a dream today ~ 2 type of freedom

Post by sentinel »

DooDoot wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 9:48 am
James Tan wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 9:34 amThe other day I saw you posted your parents pictures in another thread , would you mind telling me which country your parents originated ?
My father emigrated to Australia from Lebanon (where he lived during WW2) in 1947 due to poverty caused by WW2. He was fair skinned, green eyed with golden brown hair (which probably allowed him to pass the 'White Australia Policy') & was trained in carpentry during WW2 with the Australia army, who were stationed in Lebanon. He was the only member of his family who had a job. They ate one meal per day. He had a job due to Western imperialism but also starved due to Western imperialism. He emigrated to a British colony (Australia; which harmed greatly the native people). Generally, from the 1850s, Lebanese people emigrated from Lebanon/Syria due to the impacts of British Imperialism. My father's family emigrated from Lebanon to Canada when my father was 2 years old. My two uncles & aunty were born in Canada. But because of the Great Depression, they have to leave Canada. They went to Spain to live with family but due to the Spanish Civil War in 1936 eventually ended up again in Lebanon prior to WW2. My mother was better off in Lebanon because her family had a large amount of land which they grew food on. My father's family lived next door to my mothers; who would given them food. My mother visited Australia in 1958 to visit her sister and ended up marrying my father.
James Tan wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 9:34 amOK, your focus point could be giving you different perspective .
I think my perspective, as with most of my political posts, is social change is difficult and individual change is important. Most of my political posts are about how we, as individuals, can help improve the world by not supporting false & evil politicians (such as Hillary Clinton or Donald Trump). Personally, I think individual change is important.

Martin Luther King achieved a lot but also had his corruptions. I suppose what I am saying is today people (such as LGBT) are not fighting for rights. They are fighting for power. There is a difference. Today, the poorer people of the world are being walked upon and have few political activists representing them. This is because the political activists are often after privileges & power for themselves.

:smile:

I can see not easy for your family to live in a foreign country . I suppose you are now of Australian citizenship ? For a Muslim to convert to Buddhism is not a usual affair afaik .
So, exactly what is your family religion ?
Either Christian or Islam ?
I thought Lebanon was in wars and is still
fighting ?
Once the power is in hand , almost no one could exempted from greediness alluring .
The initial ambition turns to selfishness clouded by delusion.
Anyway , do you think any true and good politician out there worth supporting ?
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Re: I have a dream today ~ 2 type of freedom

Post by Saengnapha »

Sam Vara wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 9:59 am
Saengnapha wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 8:07 am It's very possible that the private affair of working it out only begins once we have met someone who has resolved suffering.
Possible, yes, but until we can say with certainty that it is the only way, then it's also possible that other paths suit different people. That what you refer to as the "jetsam and flotsam" is equally valid.
Then, when you do meet someone who is not suffering, it becomes a matter of discussion and reflection on this subject of what is the cause of suffering. It is not a matter of conforming or converting to any belief system in existence. It is not even a matter of having something to practice over and over again.
Here's a thing. I know several Theravadan monks, and ex-monks, who knew Ajahn Chah. Some of them say that he was not suffering; that he was an arahant, or close to arahantship. As a result of meeting him, they committed to all those things that you say are unnecessary, and indeed Ajahn Chah actively encouraged them over a number of years. They conformed. They converted to a belief system. They practised the same thing over and over again.

I find their accounts of this process - what Ajahn Chah was like, and why they thought they had to practice - to be far more convincing than your accounts of your gurus. That's not to discount what you say, of course - good luck to you. Nor is it to say that their accounts are what motivate me to practice in the way I do.

What it does mean, though, is that attempts to portray other religions, paths, or approaches as "jetsam and flotsam", or otherwise denigrate them, need to be more cogent than you are currently achieving.
Those disciples don't prove anything. Because you are more convinced by them than I, is nothing to base your logic on. I am not here to convince you. The flotsam and jetsam I am referring to is all arisings, not just religious stuff. I don't discriminate between jetsams. :D

You asked me a question about teachers. I answered. My answer is only an observation, not authority. Please take it that way. I am not here proving that my way is the way. I am trying only to draw a parallel between the private affair that the Buddha speaks of and what in my opinion all real teachers speak of, the illusion of the self, and the search that revolves around that. Anything short of that is not interesting to me
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DooDoot
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Re: I have a dream today ~ 2 type of freedom

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James Tan wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 10:21 amI can see not easy for your family to live in a foreign country .
My father died in 2011. He lived in Australia for 63 years or 72% of his life.
James Tan wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 10:21 amI suppose you are now of Australian citizenship ?
My father was an Australian citizen for probably 60 years.
James Tan wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 10:21 amFor a Muslim to convert to Buddhism is not a usual affair afaik .
My family are not Muslims. My father was Orthodox Christian & my mother was Maronite Christian, although neither were particularly religious.
James Tan wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 10:21 amSo, exactly what is your family religion ? Either Christian or Islam ?
Christian.
James Tan wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 10:21 amI thought Lebanon was in wars and is still fighting ?
Lebanon had civil wars in the 1970's and 1980's, caused by political & economic pressures due to the Palestinian influx & Christian economic privileges (monopolies) which poorer Muslims wanted a share of. Lebanon officially stopped fighting war in 1990 and, officially, all parties forgive & forget. Lebanese & Syrian people historically know how to live in a diverse society (similar to Malaysia). It is easy for Lebanese & Syrians to return to what they know.
James Tan wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 10:21 amOnce the power is in hand , almost no one could exempted from greediness alluring . The initial ambition turns to selfishness clouded by delusion. Anyway , do you think any true and good politician out there worth supporting ?
I think as Buddhists we are to support & promote the five precepts. I think Buddhism teaches (eg. AN 4.53) that in any social relationship, if the five precepts are not followed then there will be problems. For example, Martin Luther King helped end discrimination against black and other minorities in America. However, many black communities in America today still have social & economic problems. Black communities have social & economic problems because they do not follow the five precepts. In addition, a certain minority group (who lead the NAACP) gained enormous political power & privilege due to the activism of Martin Luther King and this minority group now oppresses other minority peoples. Similarly, if feminists, LGBT, Genderless Vinayaists, etc, do not follow the five precepts, social harmony will not be achieved. Without following & promoting the five precepts and ten skillful actions, political activism will not succeed.

:smile:
Last edited by DooDoot on Sat May 26, 2018 12:35 pm, edited 16 times in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: I have a dream today ~ 2 type of freedom

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Saengnapha wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 11:19 am
Those disciples don't prove anything. Because you are more convinced by them than I, is nothing to base your logic on. I am not here to convince you. The flotsam and jetsam I am referring to is all arisings, not just religious stuff. I don't discriminate between jetsams. :D
Indeed. I'm not using any logic at all, other than to point out that what you say of Theravada is equally applicable to what you yourself claim. I have done that consistently with regard to your posts, and you tend to break off contact when the challenges to prove the difference become more direct.

You may not be here to convince me or anyone else, but some of your posts do come across as an attempt to prove that some practices and attitudes common in Theravada are not as useful as people think; that you have somehow "seen through them", or know of a better way. For example, to claim that "all arisings" are mere "jetsam and flotsam" is not value neutral.
noun: flotsam
the wreckage of a ship or its cargo found floating on or washed up by the sea.
synonyms: wreckage, lost cargo, floating remains
"we were still finding interesting pieces of flotsam on the beach"
people or things that have been rejected or discarded as worthless.
"the room was cleared of boxes and other flotsam"
synonyms: rubbish, debris, detritus, waste, waste matter, discarded matter, dross, refuse, remains, scrap, lumber, odds and ends;
To apply this term to "all arisings" means that it also applies to the Buddha's claim that
Vision arose, insight arose, discernment arose, knowledge arose, illumination arose within me with regard to things never heard before: 'This is the noble truth of the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress'
This looks like a claim that what arose for the Buddha is to be rejected or discarded as worthless. Elsewhere, you have also, inter alia, claimed that "Buddhism is a dead thing"; that "too much is made of ...meditation retreats"; "It is not done step-by-step as religions would have you believe". Now, as you are not trying to convince anyone of anything, I'm sure you won't mind if I clarify this point by pointing out that whatever apparent criticisms you make of Theravadan Buddhism (long list of your posts available on request!) also applies to your own viewpoint.

Not that you would really be making any criticisms, of course. But if you post things which might be construed as criticisms, I'm sure you won't mind me pointing out the logical errors in such construals.
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Re: I have a dream today ~ 2 type of freedom

Post by Saengnapha »

Sam Vara wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 12:00 pm
Saengnapha wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 11:19 am
Those disciples don't prove anything. Because you are more convinced by them than I, is nothing to base your logic on. I am not here to convince you. The flotsam and jetsam I am referring to is all arisings, not just religious stuff. I don't discriminate between jetsams. :D
Indeed. I'm not using any logic at all, other than to point out that what you say of Theravada is equally applicable to what you yourself claim. I have done that consistently with regard to your posts, and you tend to break off contact when the challenges to prove the difference become more direct.

You may not be here to convince me or anyone else, but some of your posts do come across as an attempt to prove that some practices and attitudes common in Theravada are not as useful as people think; that you have somehow "seen through them", or know of a better way. For example, to claim that "all arisings" are mere "jetsam and flotsam" is not value neutral.
noun: flotsam
the wreckage of a ship or its cargo found floating on or washed up by the sea.
synonyms: wreckage, lost cargo, floating remains
"we were still finding interesting pieces of flotsam on the beach"
people or things that have been rejected or discarded as worthless.
"the room was cleared of boxes and other flotsam"
synonyms: rubbish, debris, detritus, waste, waste matter, discarded matter, dross, refuse, remains, scrap, lumber, odds and ends;
To apply this term to "all arisings" means that it also applies to the Buddha's claim that
Vision arose, insight arose, discernment arose, knowledge arose, illumination arose within me with regard to things never heard before: 'This is the noble truth of the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress'
This looks like a claim that what arose for the Buddha is to be rejected or discarded as worthless. Elsewhere, you have also, inter alia, claimed that "Buddhism is a dead thing"; that "too much is made of ...meditation retreats"; "It is not done step-by-step as religions would have you believe". Now, as you are not trying to convince anyone of anything, I'm sure you won't mind if I clarify this point by pointing out that whatever apparent criticisms you make of Theravadan Buddhism (long list of your posts available on request!) also applies to your own viewpoint.

Not that you would really be making any criticisms, of course. But if you post things which might be construed as criticisms, I'm sure you won't mind me pointing out the logical errors in such construals.
It's all second hand, Sam. My posts are more objections than support for misappropriated statements regarding what some authority has said vs the reality of a poster. Of course, you can say the same things about me and my posts. This doesn't make you wise, you know, or right. Everything I object to, I object the same way to myself. But at least it is mine and not something that is always quoted belonging to another. If I quoted UG or JK all the time, it would drive you nuts, too. I simply don't subscribe to the Theravada club but I like what the Buddha put forth regarding Tilakhanna and Paticcasamupadda. I like Jesus, but I don't like the Church. I'm sure you can relate to that.
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Re: I have a dream today ~ 2 type of freedom

Post by Sam Vara »

Saengnapha wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 2:17 pm My posts are more objections than support for misappropriated statements regarding what some authority has said vs the reality of a poster. Of course, you can say the same things about me and my posts.
Oh, I do, I do...
This doesn't make you wise, you know, or right
True enough, but it does make me capable of recognising consistence and inconsistency, and from such tiny acorns I might one day grow a mighty oak of wisdom.
Everything I object to, I object the same way to myself.
If you say so, but I'd be more convinced if you included statements like "U.G.'s ideas are a dead thing", "It's not done instantaneously, you know", and the like.
But at least it is mine and not something that is always quoted belonging to another.
The same can be said for whatever arises on the Theravadan path, so here we are in danger of again veering into "Mine is direct knowledge, whereas yours is somehow lesser/conditioned/dead/mere words/etc, etc." You know what happens when we go there!
If I quoted UG or JK all the time, it would drive you nuts, too.
Actually, it wouldn't. If you linked it constructively to Theravadan concepts I might well be interested; at the worst, I wouldn't bother with it much, like lots of stuff here I'm not too interested in. But I would have thought that here, on a Theravadan forum, you might expect a bit of Theravada? That would be like me seeking out a Krishnamurti forum and repeatedly pointing out that nobody is going anywhere unless they get themselves on the Eightfold Path.
I like Jesus, but I don't like the Church. I'm sure you can relate to that.
Yes, I know what you mean and it's a very sound point. In my case, though, I'm married to a Christian Priest so I get to love the Church as well!
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