Doubt, Dhamma and the Middle Way

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retrofuturist
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Doubt, Dhamma and the Middle Way

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

In the Dhamma, doubt is one of the five hindrances.

Doubt specifically about the Dhamma also causes issues...
AN 4.184 wrote:"Furthermore, there is the case of the person in doubt & perplexity, who has not arrived at certainty with regard to the True Dhamma. Then he comes down with a serious disease. As he comes down with a serious disease, the thought occurs to him, 'How doubtful & perplexed I am! I have not arrived at any certainty with regard to the True Dhamma!' He grieves & is tormented, weeps, beats his breast, & grows delirious. This, too, is a person who, subject to death, is afraid & in terror of death.
Yet, if one has absolutely certainty of their understanding of the Dhamma, and has no doubt about it whatsoever, they may be closing their minds to further advancement...
MN 95 wrote:"Bharadvaja, first you went by conviction. Now you speak of unbroken tradition. There are five things that can turn out in two ways in the here-&-now. Which five? Conviction, liking, unbroken tradition, reasoning by analogy, & an agreement through pondering views. These are the five things that can turn out in two ways in the here-&-now. Now some things are firmly held in conviction and yet vain, empty, & false. Some things are not firmly held in conviction, and yet they are genuine, factual, & unmistaken. Some things are well-liked... truly an unbroken tradition... well-reasoned... Some things are well-pondered and yet vain, empty, & false. Some things are not well-pondered, and yet they are genuine, factual, & unmistaken. In these cases it isn't proper for a knowledgeable person who safeguards the truth to come to a definite conclusion, 'Only this is true; anything else is worthless."
What is the "middle way" between the two extremes of experiencing debilitating skeptical doubt, and ensuring that we don't falsely conclude that "Only this is true; anything else is worthless"?

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Doubt, Dhamma and the Middle Way

Post by Saengnapha »

retrofuturist wrote: Fri May 25, 2018 3:50 am Greetings,

In the Dhamma, doubt is one of the five hindrances.

Doubt specifically about the Dhamma also causes issues...
AN 4.184 wrote:"Furthermore, there is the case of the person in doubt & perplexity, who has not arrived at certainty with regard to the True Dhamma. Then he comes down with a serious disease. As he comes down with a serious disease, the thought occurs to him, 'How doubtful & perplexed I am! I have not arrived at any certainty with regard to the True Dhamma!' He grieves & is tormented, weeps, beats his breast, & grows delirious. This, too, is a person who, subject to death, is afraid & in terror of death.
Yet, if one has absolutely certainty of their understanding of the Dhamma, and has no doubt about it whatsoever, they may be closing their minds to further advancement...
MN 95 wrote:"Bharadvaja, first you went by conviction. Now you speak of unbroken tradition. There are five things that can turn out in two ways in the here-&-now. Which five? Conviction, liking, unbroken tradition, reasoning by analogy, & an agreement through pondering views. These are the five things that can turn out in two ways in the here-&-now. Now some things are firmly held in conviction and yet vain, empty, & false. Some things are not firmly held in conviction, and yet they are genuine, factual, & unmistaken. Some things are well-liked... truly an unbroken tradition... well-reasoned... Some things are well-pondered and yet vain, empty, & false. Some things are not well-pondered, and yet they are genuine, factual, & unmistaken. In these cases it isn't proper for a knowledgeable person who safeguards the truth to come to a definite conclusion, 'Only this is true; anything else is worthless."
What is the "middle way" between the two extremes of experiencing debilitating skeptical doubt, and ensuring that we don't falsely conclude that "Only this is true; anything else is worthless"?

Metta,
Paul. :)
It is much more effective to be specific about what is in doubt rather than treat doubt as a general state of mind. For example, you don't doubt that you exist and that you really are someone else. By being specific about what doubt is, we see that it is NOT a cloud swarming and encompassing our brain. It is really about thinking and reasoning and the inability to do either, effectively, with our conditioned mind. With all the information of the ages stuffed into our stored memory, is it any wonder that doubt and confusion reign unimpeded?
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Re: Doubt, Dhamma and the Middle Way

Post by SarathW »

[quoteWhat is the "middle way" between the two extremes of experiencing debilitating skeptical doubt, and ensuring that we don't falsely conclude that "Only this is true; anything else is worthless"?][/quote]
Noble Eightfold path.
Of course!
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Doubt, Dhamma and the Middle Way

Post by DooDoot »

Possibly MN 95 is not referred to accurately in this thread.
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Re: Doubt, Dhamma and the Middle Way

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings DooDoot,
DooDoot wrote: Fri May 25, 2018 4:22 am Possibly MN 95 is not referred to accurately in this thread.
Many things are possible. Would you like to elaborate, good man?

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Doubt, Dhamma and the Middle Way

Post by DooDoot »

DooDoot wrote: Fri May 25, 2018 4:22 amPossibly MN 95 is not referred to accurately in this thread.
I am not intimately familiar with the sutta therefore I'll have to read it, at a later time. But my Dhamma-Radar rang a warning bell. :)
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Doubt, Dhamma and the Middle Way

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings DooDoot,

Fair enough. What was presented was Thanissaro Bhikkhu's translation.

Unfortunately Nanamoli's translation at A2I is merely an excerpt, and doesn't include that particular tract of text.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Doubt, Dhamma and the Middle Way

Post by Sam Vara »

Ven. Sujato's translation goes thusly:
First you relied on faith, now you speak of oral tradition. These five things can be seen to turn out in two different ways. What five? Faith, personal preference, oral tradition, reasoned contemplation, and acceptance of a view after consideration. Even though you have full faith in something, it may be void, hollow, and false. And even if you don’t have full faith in something, it may be true and real, not otherwise. Even though you have a strong preference for something … something may be accurately transmitted … something may be well contemplated … something may be well considered, it may be void, hollow, and false. And even if something is not well considered, it may be true and real, not otherwise.
For a sensible person who is preserving truth this is not sufficient to come to the definite conclusion: ‘This is the only truth, other ideas are stupid.’
https://suttacentral.net/mn95/en/sujato

and Bhikkhu Bodhi's is this:
Bhāradvāja, first you took your stand on faith, now you speak of oral tradition. There are five things, Bhāradvāja, that may turn out in two different ways here and now. What five? Faith, approval, oral tradition, reasoned cogitation, and reflective acceptance of a view. These five things may turn out in two different ways here and now. Now something may be fully accepted out of faith, yet it may be empty, hollow, and false; but something else may not be fully accepted out of faith, yet it may be factual, true, and unmistaken. Again, something may be fully approved of…well transmitted…well cogitated…well reflected upon, yet it may be empty, hollow, and false; but something else may not be well reflected upon, yet it may be factual, true, and unmistaken. Under these conditions it is not proper for a wise man who preserves truth to come to the definite conclusion: ‘Only this is true, anything else is wrong.’
https://suttacentral.net/mn95/en/bodhi
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Re: Doubt, Dhamma and the Middle Way

Post by SarathW »

Guys am I missing something here?
What is the problem?
When I read all three translations I get the same idea.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Doubt, Dhamma and the Middle Way

Post by User1249x »

retrofuturist wrote: Fri May 25, 2018 3:50 am Yet, if one has absolutely certainty of their understanding of the Dhamma, and has no doubt about it whatsoever, they may be closing their minds to further advancement...
i also think you are mistaking about the absolute certainty of one who has come to agreement, he has no such absolute certainty. He can say "i see no other possibility" but his range of vision may be flawed so just because he does no see any other possibility it does not mean that there is none.
Only after having realized the Dhamma, he can say "There is no other possibility, only this is true" and know not only that it is he would also know exactly how it is and isn't in regards to qualities.
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Re: Doubt, Dhamma and the Middle Way

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
User1249x wrote: Fri May 25, 2018 6:51 am Only after having realized the Dhamma, he can say "There is no other possibility, only this is true" and know not only that it is he would also know exactly how it is and isn't.
Even if one were to regard the Dhamma thusly, others with similar certitude will have different understandings and perspectives on what the Dhamma actually is. Thus, the plethora of interpretations and schools that have popped up over the past 2600 years.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Doubt, Dhamma and the Middle Way

Post by User1249x »

retrofuturist wrote: Fri May 25, 2018 6:58 am Greetings,
User1249x wrote: Fri May 25, 2018 6:51 am Only after having realized the Dhamma, he can say "There is no other possibility, only this is true" and know not only that it is he would also know exactly how it is and isn't.
Even if one were to regard the Dhamma thusly, others with similar certitude will have different understandings and perspectives on what the Dhamma actually is. Thus, the plethora of interpretations and schools that have popped up over the past 2600 years.

Metta,
Paul. :)
Yes of course there will be people who speak the words but know not the meaning of it. Rarely will they claim 100% certainty tho. It does not matter for one who has arrived at the Dhamma, he or she can have such confidence that gives rise to fearlessness because he knows there is no flaw in in his understanding of that Dhamma, he can Lion's Roar in assemblies to that extent.

I don't think there is a plethora of Dhamma interpretation nowadays either. There are not that many really and afaik several of people are alligned who proclaim a Dhamma, a meditative state that is Nibbana. Then there is the Annihilationists who say that there is no specific meditative attainment marking Stream Entry and Nibbana is more or less the destruction of craving as i understand it. There is the Eternalist camp as well which would be alligned with the Annihilationists to the extent of a supreme meditative attainment not marking the Stream-Entry but disagreeing on the nature of Parinibbana. That is more or less the state of Theravada as i see it.

There are minor disagreements about the interpretation of some other terms but as far as disagreement about the path and fruit, i think that is the general outline.
Last edited by User1249x on Fri May 25, 2018 7:44 am, edited 13 times in total.
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Re: Doubt, Dhamma and the Middle Way

Post by SarathW »

Thus, the plethora of interpretations and schools that have popped up over the past 2600 years.
What is the reason?
One is that Buddhist also clinging to their views. The second is the difficulty of finding a good teacher.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Doubt, Dhamma and the Middle Way

Post by Sam Vara »

retrofuturist wrote: Fri May 25, 2018 3:50 am
What is the "middle way" between the two extremes of experiencing debilitating skeptical doubt, and ensuring that we don't falsely conclude that "Only this is true; anything else is worthless"?
I would humbly suggest that one sane and fruitful approach is derived from Karl Popper's philosophy. We provisionally accept a particular view based on one of the mental activities outlined in MN 95, and then subject that view to the test of practical experience. If experience falsifies it, then the view should be dropped or modified, but if we find it to be confirmed, then we gently increase our trust in that view while acknowledging that it can in principle be refuted at any time.

This is the approach that Richard Gombrich takes to his study of the Buddha's thought and language, but can I think prove useful in many other areas of practice. It appears to be in line with MN 95, and also encourages humility and Right Speech when dealing with others, which in turn helps to avoid conflict.
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Re: Doubt, Dhamma and the Middle Way

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Sam,

I do like that!

I wonder if such an approach has any explicit parallel in the suttas?

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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