Why vibhava is a type of bhava in Dependent Origination?

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sentinel
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Why vibhava is a type of bhava in Dependent Origination?

Post by sentinel »

Greetings ,

Following my earlier question to DooDoot in another thread in which he suggested to start a new topic about how Vibhava can fit into
dependent origination where the translation is Extermination becoming / Non becoming .


According to SN 12.2
Analysis of Dependent Origination
Becoming / bhava cover only 3 category ,
i.e. Kama, Rupa and Arupa becoming .

"And what is continued existence? There are these three states of existence. Existence in the sensual realm, the realm of luminous form, and the formless realm. This is called continued existence."

https://suttacentral.net/sn12.2/en/sujato

Bhava itself already included the 3 category .

Now, if one take vibhava as non becoming (extermination becoming) , the meaning of extermination is annihilation which is Not
in line with the suttas .

Does Vibhava can match properly into the
dependent origination ?
You always gain by giving
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cappuccino
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Re: Why vibhava is a type of bhava in Dependent Origination?

Post by cappuccino »

why is the meaning annihilation?

perhaps you think losing self belief will annihilate you?

self belief is only a belief

death of any kind, will not affect you
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Re: Why vibhava is a type of bhava in Dependent Origination?

Post by Zom »

Does Vibhava can match properly into the
dependent origination ?
Vibhava tanha is, obviously, connected with uccheda views (annihilationism) which are still wrong views, though superior to other views. The key here is that annihilationist view is still a self-view (sakkaya-ditthi), and self-view still leads to existence. If one commits suicide, he will still reborn somewhere. Even if he does not want this to happen. This is because his deep clining to "self", a defilement based entirely on avijja, that is, delusion or ignorance. This is why desire to live on, or desire to stop living - both lead ordinary person to future rebirth in one of samsaric realms.
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Re: Why vibhava is a type of bhava in Dependent Origination?

Post by justindesilva »

Zom wrote: Thu May 24, 2018 3:34 pm
Does Vibhava can match properly into the
dependent origination ?
Vibhava tanha is, obviously, connected with uccheda views (annihilationism) which are still wrong views, though superior to other views. The key here is that annihilationist view is still a self-view (sakkaya-ditthi), and self-view still leads to existence. If one commits suicide, he will still reborn somewhere. Even if he does not want this to happen. This is because his deep clining to "self", a defilement based entirely on avijja, that is, delusion or ignorance. This is why desire to live on, or desire to stop living - both lead ordinary person to future rebirth in one of samsaric realms.
In Paticca samuppada the condition of Tanha ( craving ) is categorised as Kama tanha, bhava tanha , and vibhava tanha. Kama tanha conditiins one to cling on to five senses, and bhava tanha conditions one to cling on in this samsara and to be borne in a next birth. Yet those who hold on to a self in material forms are of the belief ( micca ditthi) that on death ones self is annihilated with the end of the self and the body is annihilated without any further birth. This last mentioned belief of annihilation of self without a rebirth is held by a materialist and such craving is called vibhava tanha.
Brahmajala sutta explains this vibhava tanha being a wrong view ( micca ditthi) and is held by an uccedavadin
or annihilationist on seven grounds of belief in self.
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Re: Why vibhava is a type of bhava in Dependent Origination?

Post by cappuccino »

annihilation ism is not about self really

it's about being annihilated regardless of self

you think that's possible?
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Re: Why vibhava is a type of bhava in Dependent Origination?

Post by cappuccino »

The one truly gone is untraceable even in the here & now.

Speaking in this way, teaching in this way, I have been erroneously … misrepresented by some who say, 'He declares the annihilation, destruction, extermination of the existing being.' But as I am not that, as I do not say that, so I have been erroneously … misrepresented by those venerable brahmans and contemplatives who say, 'He declares the annihilation, destruction, extermination of the existing being.

Both formerly and now, monks, I declare only stress and the cessation of stress.

Alagaddupama Sutta
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Re: Why vibhava is a type of bhava in Dependent Origination?

Post by cappuccino »

only stress and the cessation of stress


only stress and the cessation of stress
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Re: Why vibhava is a type of bhava in Dependent Origination?

Post by DooDoot »

Zom wrote: Thu May 24, 2018 3:34 pmVibhava tanha is, obviously, connected with uccheda views (annihilationism) which are still wrong views, though superior to other views. The key here is that annihilationist view is still a self-view (sakkaya-ditthi), and self-view still leads to existence.
Since I was mentioned in the OP, I agree this above post.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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sentinel
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Re: Why vibhava is a type of bhava in Dependent Origination?

Post by sentinel »

DooDoot wrote: Fri May 25, 2018 2:19 am
Zom wrote: Thu May 24, 2018 3:34 pmVibhava tanha is, obviously, connected with uccheda views (annihilationism) which are still wrong views, though superior to other views. The key here is that annihilationist view is still a self-view (sakkaya-ditthi), and self-view still leads to existence.
Since I was mentioned in the OP, I agree this above post.
Can you explain why vibhava is translated as Not being ? What is Not being ? Is it a type of bhava in Dependent Origination ?
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Re: Why vibhava is a type of bhava in Dependent Origination?

Post by DooDoot »

James Tan wrote: Fri May 25, 2018 3:11 amCan you explain why vibhava is translated as Not being ? What is Not being ? Is it a type of bhava in Dependent Origination ?
Vibhava-tanha is a desire not to exist; such as the desire to commit suicide. I would translate "vibhava-tanha" is as "craving-not-to-be". For example, if you are a woman but desire to be a man, this is "desire to be a man" and "desire to not be a woman". Wanting a genderless Vinaya is an example of vibhava tanha, ,i.e., not wanting to (conventionally) be a woman.
Last edited by DooDoot on Fri May 25, 2018 3:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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sentinel
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Re: Why vibhava is a type of bhava in Dependent Origination?

Post by sentinel »

DooDoot wrote: Fri May 25, 2018 3:30 am
James Tan wrote: Fri May 25, 2018 3:11 amCan you explain why vibhava is translated as Not being ? What is Not being ? Is it a type of bhava in Dependent Origination ?
Vibhava-tanha is a desire not to exist; such as the desire to commit suicide. I would translate "vibhava-tanha" is as "craving-not-to-be". For example, if you are a woman and wish to be a man, this is "desire to be a man" and "desire to not be a woman". Wanting a genderless Vinaya is an example of vibhava tanha, ,i.e., not wanting to be a woman.
So, Vibhava group under craving in the DO ? Not under ignorant as a view ?
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Re: Why vibhava is a type of bhava in Dependent Origination?

Post by DooDoot »

James Tan wrote: Fri May 25, 2018 3:34 amSo, Vibhava group under craving in the DO ? Not under ignorant as a view ?
Bhava and vibhava tanha is not written in SN 12.2 because, imo, bhava happens after tanha. SN 12.2 describes craving for sense contacts because sense contacts happen before craving.

Bhava & vibhava tanha is mentioned in 2nd Noble Truth because 2nd Noble Truth is about both tanha & bhava; the 2nd Noble Truth is about the entire "arising of suffering", which includes suffering itself. I think the translation: "craving for becoming" is wrong.

* If my mind sees a girl, seeing the girl is sense contact.

* If the girl is pretty, feeling arises.

* If feeling arises, then craving arises. Craving arises towards the girl.

* Then attachment happens, when the mind thinks: "I think the girl is pretty; I like the girl; I want the girl".

* Then becoming happens, when the mind thinks: "I want to be with her; I want to be her boyfriend or husband".

The craving is for the girl. The craving is not for becoming. The becoming happens after the craving. When craving causes becoming to arise; this is called "bhava tanha". "Bhava tanha" happens at the 10th link and not at the 8th link (in my opinion). At the 8th link, the craving is for the sense object.

Note: Please do not reply to me with DN 15 because I personally believe the Buddha did not speak DN 15. I think bhava & vibhava tanha mentioned in DN 15 is more evidence the Buddha did not speak DN 15.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Why vibhava is a type of bhava in Dependent Origination?

Post by DooDoot »

James Tan wrote: Fri May 25, 2018 3:34 amSo, Vibhava group under craving in the DO ?
Another example is the vibhava-tanha of wanting to commit suicide. In my current newly formed opinion, the tanha at the 8th link is aversion to the feeling (vedana). The 8th link is not the vibhava tanha for suiciding the self.

1. Unpleasant feeling arises, which causes the craving against the unpleasant feeling.

2. Then attachment arises, with the obsessive thinking: "I hate these feelings; these painful feelings are unbearable".

3. The becoming arises, with the thinking: "I do not want to be alive; I want to be dead".

Again, the craving that arises at the 8th link is towards the unpleasant feeling. But the craving to commit suicide occurs at the 10th link (in my opinion) because it is the craving to annihilate the "self" that arose at the 9th link.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Why vibhava is a type of bhava in Dependent Origination?

Post by justindesilva »

in both sn 12.2 vibanga sutta snd DN 15 maha nidana sutta mention of vibhava tanha is not highlighted and Brahmajala sutta explains kama tanha , bava tanha and vibhava tanha with sakkaya ditthi exclusively well.
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Re: Why vibhava is a type of bhava in Dependent Origination?

Post by sentinel »

DooDoot wrote: Fri May 25, 2018 4:39 am
James Tan wrote: Fri May 25, 2018 3:34 amSo, Vibhava group under craving in the DO ?
Another example is the vibhava-tanha of wanting to commit suicide. In my current newly formed opinion, the tanha at the 8th link is aversion to the feeling (vedana). The 8th link is not the vibhava tanha for suiciding the self.

1. Unpleasant feeling arises, which causes the craving against the unpleasant feeling.

2. Then attachment arises, with the obsessive thinking: "I hate these feelings; these painful feelings are unbearable".

3. The becoming arises, with the thinking: "I do not want to be alive; I want to be dead".

Again, the craving that arises at the 8th link is towards the unpleasant feeling. But the craving to commit suicide occurs at the 10th link (in my opinion) because it is the craving to annihilate the "self" that arose at the 9th link.
Your explanation might work provided the link confine to one life model and all merely psychological aspect but not if two or three life model .
However , I think the suicidal mentality is not Craving , it is more to Perceiving and Intention .
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