Why vibhava is a type of bhava in Dependent Origination?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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DooDoot
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Re: Why vibhava is a type of bhava in Dependent Origination?

Post by DooDoot » Fri May 25, 2018 10:06 am

justindesilva wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 5:09 am
in both sn 12.2 vibanga sutta snd DN 15 maha nidana sutta mention of vibhava tanha is not highlighted
Pali for SN 12.2 - empty of vibhava

Pali for DN 15 - includes vibhava
Taṇhaṃ paṭicca pariyesanā’ti iti kho panetaṃ vuttaṃ, tadānanda, imināpetaṃ pariyāyena veditabbaṃ, yathā taṇhaṃ paṭicca pariyesanā. Taṇhā ca hi, ānanda, nābhavissa sabbena sabbaṃ sabbathā sabbaṃ kassaci kimhici, seyyathidaṃ— kāmataṇhā bhavataṇhā vibhavataṇhā, sabbaso taṇhāya asati taṇhānirodhā api nu kho pariyesanā paññāyethā”ti? “No hetaṃ, bhante”. “Tasmātihānanda, eseva hetu etaṃ nidānaṃ esa samudayo esa paccayo pariyesanāya, yadidaṃ taṇhā. Iti kho, ānanda, ime dve dhammā dvayena vedanāya ekasamosaraṇā bhavanti.

James Tan
Posts: 641
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: Why vibhava is a type of bhava in Dependent Origination?

Post by James Tan » Fri May 25, 2018 10:33 am

DooDoot wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 10:06 am
justindesilva wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 5:09 am
in both sn 12.2 vibanga sutta snd DN 15 maha nidana sutta mention of vibhava tanha is not highlighted
Pali for SN 12.2 - empty of vibhava

Pali for DN 15 - includes vibhava
Taṇhaṃ paṭicca pariyesanā’ti iti kho panetaṃ vuttaṃ, tadānanda, imināpetaṃ pariyāyena veditabbaṃ, yathā taṇhaṃ paṭicca pariyesanā. Taṇhā ca hi, ānanda, nābhavissa sabbena sabbaṃ sabbathā sabbaṃ kassaci kimhici, seyyathidaṃ— kāmataṇhā bhavataṇhā vibhavataṇhā, sabbaso taṇhāya asati taṇhānirodhā api nu kho pariyesanā paññāyethā”ti? “No hetaṃ, bhante”. “Tasmātihānanda, eseva hetu etaṃ nidānaṃ esa samudayo esa paccayo pariyesanāya, yadidaṃ taṇhā. Iti kho, ānanda, ime dve dhammā dvayena vedanāya ekasamosaraṇā bhavanti.
Can you elaborate about the Perceiving ? Does it include thinking and memory ?
:reading:

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DooDoot
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Re: Why vibhava is a type of bhava in Dependent Origination?

Post by DooDoot » Fri May 25, 2018 11:04 am

James Tan wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 10:33 am
Can you elaborate about the Perceiving ? Does it include thinking and memory ?
I am not sure what perceiving is. Often perceiving is said to be "labeling" and therefore includes memory & a singular thought. However, perceiving could merely be the recognition of difference; such as perceiving the color difference between black & white or perceiving differences in shapes or sounds. I am not sure what perceiving (sanna) is. Possibly another dhamma friend can help elaborate, here.

James Tan
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Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: Why vibhava is a type of bhava in Dependent Origination?

Post by James Tan » Fri May 25, 2018 11:10 am

DooDoot wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 11:04 am
James Tan wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 10:33 am
Can you elaborate about the Perceiving ? Does it include thinking and memory ?
I am not sure what perceiving is. Often perceiving is said to be "labeling" and therefore includes memory & a singular thought. However, perceiving could merely be the recognition of difference; such as perceiving the color difference between black & white or perceiving differences in shapes or sounds. I am not sure what perceiving (sanna) is. Possibly another dhamma friend can help elaborate, here.

I wonder what Sanna refer to ?
Labeling , recognising and memory .
Singular thought , care to expand ?
:reading:

justindesilva
Posts: 673
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2016 12:38 pm

Re: Why vibhava is a type of bhava in Dependent Origination?

Post by justindesilva » Fri May 25, 2018 4:55 pm

James Tan wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 11:10 am
DooDoot wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 11:04 am
James Tan wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 10:33 am
Can you elaborate about the Perceiving ? Does it include thinking and memory ?
I am not sure what perceiving is. Often perceiving is said to be "labeling" and therefore includes memory & a singular thought. However, perceiving could merely be the recognition of difference; such as perceiving the color difference between black & white or perceiving differences in shapes or sounds. I am not sure what perceiving (sanna) is. Possibly another dhamma friend can help elaborate, here.

I wonder what Sanna refer to ?
Labeling , recognising and memory .
Singular thought , care to expand ?
In the thought process it is , phassa ( contact), vedana
(feeling) , sangna ( signal ) , sankara (fabrication) vingana ( consciousness) .
Analogy:
A mango falls and the rays contact the eyes (phassa)
The eye receives and feels the rays ( vedana)
the feeling signals ( sangna) of a form
with former experience the eye recognises the mango
The perception thus received by consciousness decides on its intention ( to eat , hold or give) thus registering the thougt with kusal or akusala mula.
This is part of citta vidi too.
In the same manner perceptions of ear ( sound) nose ( smell) or tongue ( taste) or skin ( tactile ) can act with its consciousnesses( vingnana ) while accumulating karma.

justindesilva
Posts: 673
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2016 12:38 pm

Re: Why vibhava is a type of bhava in Dependent Origination?

Post by justindesilva » Fri May 25, 2018 5:07 pm

James Tan wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 11:10 am
DooDoot wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 11:04 am
James Tan wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 10:33 am
Can you elaborate about the Perceiving ? Does it include thinking and memory ?
I am not sure what perceiving is. Often perceiving is said to be "labeling" and therefore includes memory & a singular thought. However, perceiving could merely be the recognition of difference; such as perceiving the color difference between black & white or perceiving differences in shapes or sounds. I am not sure what perceiving (sanna) is. Possibly another dhamma friend can help elaborate, here.

I wonder what Sanna refer to ?
Labeling , recognising and memory .
Singular thought , care to expand ?
In the thought process it is , phassa ( contact), vedana
(feeling) , sangna ( signal ) , sankara (fabrication) vingana ( consciousness) .
Analogy:
A mango falls and the rays contact the eyes (phassa)
The eye receives and feels the rays ( vedana)
the feeling signals ( sangna)
the signal fabricates a form ( mango) with former experience. ( sankara)
the consciousness ( vingnana) intends on the action of this perception building kusal or akusal .
It is then registered as explained in citta vidi.
phassa vedana sangna sankara acts similarly with other consciousnesses ( vingnana) as ear sound, smell ( nose)
tongue ( taste) and skin( tactile) thus .

James Tan
Posts: 641
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: Why vibhava is a type of bhava in Dependent Origination?

Post by James Tan » Sat May 26, 2018 6:47 am

justindesilva wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 5:07 pm
James Tan wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 11:10 am
DooDoot wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 11:04 am

I am not sure what perceiving is. Often perceiving is said to be "labeling" and therefore includes memory & a singular thought. However, perceiving could merely be the recognition of difference; such as perceiving the color difference between black & white or perceiving differences in shapes or sounds. I am not sure what perceiving (sanna) is. Possibly another dhamma friend can help elaborate, here.

I wonder what Sanna refer to ?
Labeling , recognising and memory .
Singular thought , care to expand ?
In the thought process it is , phassa ( contact), vedana
(feeling) , sangna ( signal ) , sankara (fabrication) vingana ( consciousness) .
Analogy:
A mango falls and the rays contact the eyes (phassa)
The eye receives and feels the rays ( vedana)
the feeling signals ( sangna)
the signal fabricates a form ( mango) with former experience. ( sankara)
the consciousness ( vingnana) intends on the action of this perception building kusal or akusal .
It is then registered as explained in citta vidi.
phassa vedana sangna sankara acts similarly with other consciousnesses ( vingnana) as ear sound, smell ( nose)
tongue ( taste) and skin( tactile) thus .

I had hard time understanding the meaning of each of five aggregate and the link in Dependent origination .
The sankhara in aggregates and in dependent origination is different for example .
:reading:

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