What is the difference between Tanha and Upadana?

[SarathW]

I am not sure about the above. I think before a sense object is "sensual" is must be regarded as "beautiful", "sexy", "delicious", etc

This idea is similar to Aggregate and Clinging-aggregate.
The way I understand Kama refers to five senses spear(ie: sensuality clinging) and Idea and intellect refers to as views. (view clinging, precept & practice clinging, and the doctrine of self-clinging.)

[SarathW]

Please see the answers I got from Stack Exchange.

https://buddhism.stackexchange.com/ques ... nd-upadana

[theY]

After this I will let you see "you can use this explanation in everywhere of tipitaka".
Sutta. Saṃ. Ma. Dhammacakkappavattanasutta:

Idaṃ kho pana, bhikkhave, dukkhaṃ ariya·saccaṃ: jāti·pi dukkhā, jarā·pi dukkhā (byādhi·pi dukkho) maraṇam·pi dukkhaṃ, a·p·piyehi sampayogo dukkho, piyehi vippayogo dukkho, yampicchaṃ na labhati tam·pi dukkhaṃ; saṃkhittena pañc·upādāna·k·khandhā dukkhā.
Furthermore, bhikkhus, this is the dukkha ariya·sacca(2): jāti is dukkha(6), jarā is dukkha(6) (sickness is dukkha) maraṇa is dukkha(6), association with what is disliked is dukkha, dissociation from what is liked is dukkha, not to get what one wants is dukkha; in short, the five upādāna(4)'k'khandhas are dukkha(3).
Idaṃ kho pana, bhikkhave, dukkha·samudayaṃ ariya·saccaṃ: Y·āyaṃ taṇhā ponobbhavikā nandi·rāga·sahagatā tatra·tatr·ābhinandinī, seyyathidaṃ: kāma·taṇhā, bhava·taṇhā, vibhava·taṇhā.
Furthermore, bhikkhus, this is the dukkha·samudaya ariya·sacca(1): this taṇhā leading to rebirth(7), (because taṇhā) connected with desire and enjoyment (8) (this is upādāna; see upādāna description in Mahānidānasutta, which I quoted above), (by taṇhā) finding delight here or there(=idiom:indefinite=upādāna)(5), that is to say: kāma-taṇhā, bhava-taṇhā and vibhava-taṇhā.

Above, buddha taught dukkha·samudayaṃ ariya·saccaṃ taṇhā condition dukkha·ariya·saccaṃ(2) pañc·upādāna·k·khandhā dukkhā by upādāna(4) [often attaching/taṇhā finding delight here or there(5)] in khandhā dukkhā(3); therefore jāti·pi dukkhā/jarā·pi dukkhā/maraṇam·pi dukkhaṃ(6) [new upatti-bhava], which are the last effects in paṭiccasamuppāda, are included in dukkha·ariya·saccaṃ(2) and they are explained as new upatti-bhava in this statement "taṇhā leading to rebirth(new upatti-bhava)"(7), which are the same taṇhā's descriptions as it's follow statements "taṇhā connected with desire and enjoyment(8)" and "taṇhā finding delight here or there(5)".
Summary: (6)=(3) which depend on (4); and (4) is explained by (5), so when say (5) condition (7), it is the same as say (4) condition (7). Therefore buddha taught upādāna-khandha, instead of taṇhā-khandha.

[SarathW]

Thank you The Y.
Could you make your answer bit more simple.

[DooDoot]

The way I understand Kama refers to five senses spear (ie: sensuality clinging)...

I already caste doubt upon this. Arahants have five senses but the five sense are not a "spear" for arahants; as follows:

Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being, completely released through final knowledge. However, his five sense faculties remain unimpaired...

Iti 44

I think you need to provide evidence from the Pali suttas to support your view that the five senses are "sensuality".

Please see the answers I got from Stack Exchange.

https://buddhism.stackexchange.com/ques ... nd-upadana

Why don't you take refuge in the Dhamma of the Buddha found in the suttas?

Above, buddha taught dukkha·samudayaṃ ariya·saccaṃ taṇhā condition dukkha·ariya·saccaṃ(2) pañc·upādāna·k·khandhā dukkhā by upādāna(4) [often attaching/taṇhā finding delight here or there(5)] in khandhā dukkhā(3); therefore jāti·pi dukkhā/jarā·pi dukkhā/maraṇam·pi dukkhaṃ(6) [new upatti-bhava], which are the last effects in paṭiccasamuppāda, are included in dukkha·ariya·saccaṃ(2) and they are explained as new upatti-bhava in this statement "taṇhā leading to rebirth(new upatti-bhava)"(7), which are the same taṇhā's descriptions as it's follow statements "taṇhā connected with desire and enjoyment(8)" and "taṇhā finding delight here or there(5)". Summary: (6)=(3) which depend on (4); and (4) is explained by (5), so when say (5) condition (7), it is the same as say (4) condition (7). Therefore buddha taught upādāna-khandha, instead of taṇhā-khandha.

Thank you The Y for your simple answer. As I posted previously, attachment (upadana) must be included between craving & becoming for suffering to arise. A synonym for "upadana" is "nandi" ("delight"), as included in the 2nd Noble Truth.

Yā vedanāsu nandī tadupādānaṃ

Delight in feelings is attachment.

MN 38

And this, monks, is the noble truth of the origination of stress: the craving that makes for further becoming—accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there—i.e., craving for sensuality, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming

SN 56.11

[theY]

Thank you The Y.
Could you make your answer bit more simple.

He quote:

And this, monks, is the noble truth of the origination of stress: the craving that makes for further becoming...

SN 56.11

But he avoid to quote the previous text:

dukkha ariya·sacca ... five upādāna'k'khandhas are dukkha.

Because he want to lie you "upatti-bhava doesn't depend on upādāna". Actually, if you see the fulltext, it is already showed upatti-bhava(jāti of upādāna-khanda) depending on upādāna. So, the buddha called "upādāna-khandhā dukkha (ariya sacca)", not called "taṇhā-khandha" in that sutta. And the buddha also taught upādāna as "(because taṇhā) connected with desire and enjoyment, (by taṇhā) finding delight here or there" in the same text, too.

He lie you, he cut tipitaka context off, to make you confuse.

[DooDoot]

Because he want to lie you

A "liar" cannot develop concentration. My mind has concentration, which is why my mind can be calm and use right effort to read your posts.

[DooDoot]

He quote:

And this, monks, is the noble truth of the origination of stress: the craving that makes for further becoming...

SN 56.11

But he avoid to quote the previous text:

dukkha ariya·sacca ... five upādāna'k'khandhas are dukkha.

He lie you, he cut tipitaka context off, to make you confuse.

The 2nd Noble Truth is Arising of Suffering, which includes upadana.

To quote AN 3.61:

"And what is the noble truth of the origination of stress?

"From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then old age & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

"This is called the noble truth of the origination of stress.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

To quote MN 38:

Yā vedanāsu nandī tadupādānaṃ

Delight in feelings is attachment.

MN 38

To quote SN 56.11:

And this, monks, is the noble truth of the origination of stress: the craving that makes for further becoming—accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there—i.e., craving for sensuality, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming

SN 56.11

Because he want to lie you "upatti-bhava doesn't depend on upādāna". Actually, if you see the fulltext, it is already showed upatti-bhava(jāti of upādāna-khanda) depending on upādāna. So, the buddha called "upādāna-khandhā dukkha (ariya sacca)", not called "taṇhā-khandha" in that sutta. And the buddha also taught upādāna as "(because taṇhā) connected with desire and enjoyment, (by taṇhā) finding delight here or there" in the same text, too. He lie you, he cut tipitaka context off, to make you confuse.

I explained the same as The Y. Maybe The Y should make their mind calm and read clearly before answering. To study Dhamma without developing concentration leads to rebirth in hell.

[SarathW]

Thanks guys
I create a new post to address this particular issue.
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=31955

[DooDoot]

What is the difference between Tanha and Upadana?

In my opinion, the difference between Tanha and Upadana is:

1. Tanha is not thinking. Tanha is the urge, push & pull energy of defilement (kilesa) towards or away from a sense-object that is felt. Craving is agitation but not yet suffering. For example, MN 148 appears to describe knowing craving without suffering.

2. Upadana is thinking (papanca) arising from craving fixation upon a sense object. Upadana is suffering because it is bondage & a spear. With upadana, the mind loses its spaciousness & freedom. The 1st Noble Truth appears to say upadana is suffering.

3. For example, if the mind thinks: "I want this"; in my opinion, the want is tanha and the "I" is upadana. For example, MN 140 appears to say "conceiving I am" is suffering; is a dart; is an arrow; is a spear; is a cancer.



From Vism. XVII.242 (see the highlighted parts):

Craving is the aspiring to an object that one has not yet reached, like a thief’s stretching out his hand in the dark; clinging is the grasping of an object that one has reached, like the thief’s grasping his objective.

[sentinel]

And what is becoming? These three are becomings: sensual becoming, form becoming, & formless becoming. This is called becoming.
SN 12.2

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

And this, monks, is the noble truth of the origination of stress: the craving that makes for further becoming—accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there—i.e., craving for sensuality, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming

SN 56.11

From
Form becoming and Formless becoming
Change to
Becoming and Non becoming ,

Can you explain why ?

[DooDoot]

From
Form becoming and Formless becoming
Change to
Becoming and Non becoming ,

Can you explain why ?

I provided my personal opinion that:

1. Four Noble Truths was a brief introductory teaching therefore the 2nd noble truth summaries Dependent Origination in the most general way. The Four Truths was taught to five beginner ascetics in the Deer Park.

2. Dependent Origination is a detailed teaching therefore the words are often different to reflect the detail. However, some words are not included, such as kamatanha, bhavatanha & vibhava tanha because the Buddha decided to emphasize craving for the six sense contacts.

3. For example, becoming ("bhava") in Dependent Origination must also include "non-becoming" ("vibhava").

4. For example, MN 148 teaches Dependent Origination in a different way, by listing craving as the underlying tendencies of "greed", "hatred" and "ignorance".

5. For example, the quote below describes many types of becoming & non-becoming for form & formlessness:

'I am' is a construing. 'I am this' is a construing. 'I shall be' is a construing. 'I shall not be'... 'I shall be possessed of form'... 'I shall not be possessed of form'... 'I shall be percipient'... 'I shall not be percipient'... 'I shall be neither percipient nor non-percipient' is a construing

MN 140

6. My reading of the suttas finds many different combinations & ways of teaching the same subject.

There are three kinds of Tanha in Sutta. (Kama, Bhava, Vibhava)

I personally doubt there are these three kinds of Tanha in Sutta (Kama, Bhava, Vibhava). These three Pali terms are found in the following verse, which includes a mixture of different dhammas:

And this, monks, is the noble truth of the origination of stress: the craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there — i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming.

SN 56.11

Therefore, the terms "kamatanha", "bhavatanha" and "vibhava tanha" might represent the fruition of tanha, delight (attachment) and becoming. They might be better translated as "sensual craving"; "to-be-craving" and "not-to-be-craving" because they might be, in reality, a mixture of craving, delight & becoming.

Please explain how these three link to Upadana.

"Delight" ("nandi") is a synonym for "upadana" (attachment) and delight is already included within these three manifestations or fruitions of craving according to what the Lord Buddha taught. To quote:

And this, monks, is the noble truth of the origination of stress: the craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there — i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming.

SN 56.11

The "upadana" is highlighted in red color above. MN 38 says: "Delight is attachment".

[SarathW]

Dependent Origination must also include "non-becoming" ("vibhava").

This is incorrect.
How can you include Vibhava (Nibbana) in DO?

[DooDoot]

This is incorrect.
How can you include Vibhava (Nibbana) in DO?

Vibhava is not Nibbana according to the Pali suttas. Since you appear to have no faith in those sincerely interested in the truth & study, maybe ask a bhikkhu, such as Venerable Dhammanando or Sujato, so you can believe the monk with blind faith. Vibhava is not Nibbana. Buddhism 101.

How, bhikkhus, do some overreach? Now some are troubled, ashamed, and disgusted by this very same being and they rejoice in (the idea of) non-being, asserting: ‘In as much as this self, good sirs, when the body perishes at death, is annihilated and destroyed and does not exist after death—this is peaceful, this is excellent, this is reality!’ Thus, bhikkhus, do some overreach.

Kathañca, bhikkhave, atidhāvanti eke? Bhaveneva kho paneke aṭṭīyamānā harāyamānā jigucchamānā vibhavaṃ abhinandanti—yato kira, bho, ayaṃ attā kāyassa bhedā paraṃ maraṇā ucchijjati vinassati na hoti paraṃ maraṇā; etaṃ santaṃ etaṃ paṇītaṃ etaṃ yāthāvanti. Evaṃ kho, bhikkhave, atidhāvanti eke.

iti 49

They neither make a choice nor form an intention to continue existence or to exterminate existence.

So neva taṃ abhisaṅkharoti, na abhisañcetayati bhavāya vā vibhavāya vā.

Because of this, they don’t grasp at anything in the world.

So anabhisaṅkharonto anabhisañcetayanto bhavāya vā vibhavāya vā na kiñci loke upādiyati

MN 140

[SarathW]

Vibhava is not Nibbana.

Fair enough but I create a new topic.