What is the difference between Tanha and Upadana?

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SarathW
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What is the difference between Tanha and Upadana?

Post by SarathW »

What is the difference between Tanha and Upadana?
Why Buddha did not say Tanha Paccya Bhava?
Please give me a practical answer than a technical answer which are find in many places.
There are three kinds of Tanha in Sutta. (Kama, Bhava, Vibhava)
Please explain how these three link to Upadana.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
santa100
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Re: What is the difference between Tanha and Upadana?

Post by santa100 »

From Vism. XVII.242 (see the highlighted parts):
Craving is the aspiring to an object that one has not yet reached, like a thief’s stretching out his hand in the dark; clinging is the grasping of an object that one has reached, like the thief’s grasping his objective. These states oppose fewness of wishes and contentment and so they are the roots of the suffering due to seeking and guarding.
For more info., refer to Chapter XVII for an excellent analysis on DO.
SarathW
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Re: What is the difference between Tanha and Upadana?

Post by SarathW »

How above related to four kind of Upadana?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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DooDoot
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Re: What is the difference between Tanha and Upadana?

Post by DooDoot »

SarathW wrote: Wed May 23, 2018 12:38 am What is the difference between Tanha and Upadana?
SW.

Are you asking this question about the difference between Tanha and Upadana because you genuinely don't know the answer? Or are you asking this question to generate discussion?
SarathW wrote: Wed May 23, 2018 12:38 amWhy Buddha did not say Tanha Paccya Bhava?
But in SN 56.11 the Buddha did say Tanha Paccya Bhava.
And this, monks, is the noble truth of the origination of stress: the craving that makes for further becoming...

SN 56.11
:candle:
SarathW wrote: Wed May 23, 2018 12:38 amThere are three kinds of Tanha in Sutta. (Kama, Bhava, Vibhava). Please explain how these three link to Upadana.
The Buddha did not teach Kama, Bhava & Vibhava Tanha in Dependent Origination therefore the question appears not relevant.
And what is clinging? These four are clingings: sensuality clinging, view clinging, precept & practice clinging, and doctrine of self clinging. This is called clinging.

And what is craving? These six are classes of craving: craving for forms, craving for sounds, craving for smells, craving for tastes, craving for tactile sensations, craving for ideas. This is called craving.

SN 12.2
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SarathW
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Re: What is the difference between Tanha and Upadana?

Post by SarathW »

Are you asking this question about the difference between Tanha and Upadana because you genuinely don't know the answer? Or are you asking this question to generate discussion?
It appears you are over estimating my knowledge.
That is why I said I do not need a technical answer.
Thanks for the complement by the way.
:D
Last edited by SarathW on Wed May 23, 2018 5:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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SarathW
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Re: What is the difference between Tanha and Upadana?

Post by SarathW »

The Buddha did not teach Kama, Bhava & Vibhava Tanha
See the following link.

https://puredhamma.net/key-dhamma-conce ... ava-tanha/
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
sentinel
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Re: What is the difference between Tanha and Upadana?

Post by sentinel »

It seems the kama tanha bhava tanha vibhava tanha did not appear in the dependent origination as doodoot said . Is there any sutta reference ?
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SarathW
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Re: What is the difference between Tanha and Upadana?

Post by SarathW »

It seems the kama tanha bhava tanha vibhava tanha did not appear in the dependent origination as doodoot said . Is there any sutta reference ?
Then, where do you find them?
What about four Upadana?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
sentinel
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Re: What is the difference between Tanha and Upadana?

Post by sentinel »

Sarath ,

The kama tanha is the craving as pointed out above in Sn 12.2 .
The bhava and vibhava is more about View actually . That is the difference .

If you read literature like visuddhimagga , other texts or commentary , sometimes you will be confused because it is not in line with the suttas.
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DooDoot
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Re: What is the difference between Tanha and Upadana?

Post by DooDoot »

SarathW wrote: Wed May 23, 2018 4:52 amSee the following link.
I quoted the suttas already. The Buddha did not teach Kama, Bhava & Vibhava Tanha in Dependent Origination (except in the questionable DN 15) but did teach Kama, Bhava & Vibhava Tanha in the Four Noble Truths. Four Noble Truths is short summary version. Dependent Origination is long summary version. However, this subtle matter is unrelated to the primary question (which was already answered by Santa100).
'From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging.' Thus it has been said. And this is the way to understand how from craving as a requisite condition comes clinging. If there were no craving at all, in any way, of anything anywhere — i.e., craving for sensuality, craving for becoming, craving for no becoming — in the utter absence of craving, from the cessation of craving, would clinging be discerned?

DN 15
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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SarathW
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Re: What is the difference between Tanha and Upadana?

Post by SarathW »

The Buddha did not teach Kama, Bhava & Vibhava Tanha in Dependent Origination
This logic appears to be incorrect.
If you find a description of Tanha in another teaching of Buddha it might as well applicable to DO.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dha ... tanha.html
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sentinel
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Re: What is the difference between Tanha and Upadana?

Post by sentinel »

DooDoot wrote: Wed May 23, 2018 4:25 am
And this, monks, is the noble truth of the origination of stress: the craving that makes for further becoming...



SN 56.11
Hi doodoot ,

Can you quote in pali the above sentence from the sutta ?

Thanks .
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DooDoot
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Re: What is the difference between Tanha and Upadana?

Post by DooDoot »

SarathW wrote: Wed May 23, 2018 8:01 amThis logic appears to be incorrect.
The link you provided says nothing. My logic seems correct; per SN 12.2.
"And what is becoming? These three are becomings: sensual becoming, form becoming, & formless becoming. This is called becoming.

"And what is clinging? These four are clingings: sensuality clinging, view clinging, precept & practice clinging, and doctrine of self clinging. This is called clinging.

"And what is craving? These six are classes of craving: craving for forms, craving for sounds, craving for smells, craving for tastes, craving for tactile sensations, craving for ideas. This is called craving.

SN 12.2
Since D.O. has 12 conditions, it seems craving is not taught as craving for sensuality, becoming & non-becoming because D.O. seems to be explaining how craving arises from feeling in relation to six sense contacts.

Where as the formula: 'craving for sensuality, craving for becoming & craving for non becoming' is found in the 2nd noble truth; which is D.O. explained very briefly and therefore includes the link of attachment (upadana) even though it does not literally mention upadana. When the 2nd noble truth says: "Craving leading to new becoming"; attachment must exist in this. SN 12.2 says attachment includes the arising of the "I" concept. How can craving for becoming (bhava tanha) arise without the "I" concept"? If this mind thinks: "I want to become rich & famous", how can this occur without attachment? :shrug:
James Tan wrote: Wed May 23, 2018 10:52 amCan you quote in pali the above sentence from the sutta?
Interesting question. The Pali is:
yāyaṃ taṇhā ponobbhavikā nandirāgasahagatā tatratatrābhinandinī, seyyathidaṃ, kāmataṇhā, bhavataṇhā, vibhavataṇhā
I do not know where the word "for" comes from in the translations. :shrug:
...craving for sensual pleasures, craving for continued existence, and craving to exterminate existence.
If craving is "for" existence then should the "existence" ("bhava") exist prior to the craving ("tahna")? :shrug:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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sentinel
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Re: What is the difference between Tanha and Upadana?

Post by sentinel »

DooDoot wrote: Wed May 23, 2018 11:57 am
SarathW wrote: Wed May 23, 2018 8:01 amThis logic appears to be incorrect.
The link you provided says nothing. My logic seems correct; per SN 12.2.
"And what is becoming? These three are becomings: sensual becoming, form becoming, & formless becoming. This is called becoming.

"And what is clinging? These four are clingings: sensuality clinging, view clinging, precept & practice clinging, and doctrine of self clinging. This is called clinging.

"And what is craving? These six are classes of craving: craving for forms, craving for sounds, craving for smells, craving for tastes, craving for tactile sensations, craving for ideas. This is called craving.

SN 12.2
Since D.O. has 12 conditions, it seems craving is not taught as craving for sensuality, becoming & non-becoming because D.O. seems to be explaining how craving arises from feeling in relation to six sense contacts.

Where as the formula: 'craving for sensuality, craving for becoming & craving for non becoming' is found in the 2nd noble truth; which is D.O. explained very briefly and therefore includes the link of attachment (upadana) even though it does not literally mention upadana. When the 2nd noble truth says: "Craving leading to new becoming"; attachment must exist in this. SN 12.2 says attachment includes the arising of the "I" concept. How can craving for becoming (bhava tanha) arise without the "I" concept"? If this mind thinks: "I want to become rich & famous", how can this occur without attachment? :shrug:
James Tan wrote: Wed May 23, 2018 10:52 amCan you quote in pali the above sentence from the sutta?
Interesting question. The Pali is:
yāyaṃ taṇhā ponobbhavikā nandirāgasahagatā tatratatrābhinandinī, seyyathidaṃ, kāmataṇhā, bhavataṇhā, vibhavataṇhā
I do not know where the word "for" comes from in the translations. :shrug:
...craving for sensual pleasures, craving for continued existence, and craving to exterminate existence.
If craving is "for" existence then should the "existence" ("bhava") exist prior to the craving ("tahna")? :shrug:
The sensual pleasure craving (kama tanha) is Craving . Craves for 5 sense objects .

But , the existence craving (bhava tanha) and exterminate existence craving (vibhava tanha) is Not really craving , it is more of Ditthi / View .

It is craving for the sense objects that
leading to renew existence or becoming .

Only when in certain circumstances we think of prolonging life or suicide to terminate life .


SN12.2
“And what, bhikkhus, is existence? There are these three kinds of existence: sense-sphere existence, form-sphere existence, formless-sphere existence. This is called existence.”

According to one of the list of ten fetters ,
Desire for Arupa (formless) realm
Is one of the Fetter .
Not Desire for or Crave for Extermination !

There is a mistake somehow !


1.Desire
2.Desire for rebirth in Form realm
3.Desire for rebirth in Formless realm
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DooDoot
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Re: What is the difference between Tanha and Upadana?

Post by DooDoot »

James Tan wrote: Wed May 23, 2018 1:20 pmThe sensual pleasure craving (kama tanha) is Craving . Craves for 5 sense objects
I am not sure about the above. I think before a sense object is "sensual" is must be regarded as "beautiful", "sexy", "delicious", etc. Such ideas of "beautiful", "sexy", "delicious" are called "themes" ("nimitta"), such as:
As he attends to the theme of beauty (subhanimittaṃ), passion will despoil his mind.

MN 5
I think themes or ideas of "beautiful", "sexy", "delicious" might be types of attachment/clinging (upadana), as follows:
And what is clinging? These four are clingings: sensuality clinging, view clinging, precept & practice clinging, and doctrine of self clinging. This is called clinging.

SN 12.2
:candle:
James Tan wrote: Wed May 23, 2018 1:20 pmSN12.2

“And what, bhikkhus, is existence? There are these three kinds of existence: sense-sphere existence, form-sphere existence, formless-sphere existence (kāmabhavo, rūpabhavo, arūpabhavo). This is called existence.”
This is definitely a serious mistranslation by Bhikkhu Bodhi. The word "kama" does not mean "sense sphere". This is has been advised to you before but you did not consider it. The sense spheres (ayatana) obviously are not always "sensuality". To be "sensuality", it must be "desirable, agreeable, pleasant, sensual and arousing" (MN 13). Also, form, the formless & even Nibbana (in Ud 8.1) are said to be "sense spheres" ("ayatana").
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