What is the difference between Tanha and Upadana?

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theY
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Re: What is the difference between Tanha and Upadana?

Post by theY » Thu May 24, 2018 4:47 am

SarathW wrote:
Thu May 24, 2018 3:21 am
Thank you The Y.
Could you make your answer bit more simple.

He quote:
DooDoot wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 4:25 am
And this, monks, is the noble truth of the origination of stress: the craving that makes for further becoming...

SN 56.11
But he avoid to quote the previous text:
dukkha ariya·sacca ... five upādāna'k'khandhas are dukkha.
Because he want to lie you "upatti-bhava doesn't depend on upādāna". Actually, if you see the fulltext, it is already showed upatti-bhava(jāti of upādāna-khanda) depending on upādāna. So, the buddha called "upādāna-khandhā dukkha (ariya sacca)", not called "taṇhā-khandha" in that sutta. And the buddha also taught upādāna as "(because taṇhā) connected with desire and enjoyment, (by taṇhā) finding delight here or there" in the same text, too.

He lie you, he cut tipitaka context off, to make you confuse.
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
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DooDoot
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Re: What is the difference between Tanha and Upadana?

Post by DooDoot » Thu May 24, 2018 5:00 am

theY wrote:
Thu May 24, 2018 4:47 am
Because he want to lie you
:| :shock: :(

A "liar" cannot develop concentration. My mind has concentration, which is why my mind can be calm and use right effort to read your posts. :ugeek: :geek:
Last edited by DooDoot on Thu May 24, 2018 5:17 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: What is the difference between Tanha and Upadana?

Post by DooDoot » Thu May 24, 2018 5:01 am

theY wrote:
Thu May 24, 2018 4:47 am
He quote:
DooDoot wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 4:25 am
And this, monks, is the noble truth of the origination of stress: the craving that makes for further becoming...

SN 56.11
But he avoid to quote the previous text:
dukkha ariya·sacca ... five upādāna'k'khandhas are dukkha.
He lie :( you, he cut tipitaka context off, to make you confuse.
The 2nd Noble Truth is Arising of Suffering, which includes upadana.

To quote AN 3.61:
"And what is the noble truth of the origination of stress?

"From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then old age & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

"This is called the noble truth of the origination of stress.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
To quote MN 38:
Yā vedanāsu nandī tadupādāna

Delight in feelings is attachment.

MN 38
To quote SN 56.11:
And this, monks, is the noble truth of the origination of stress: the craving that makes for further becoming—accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there—i.e., craving for sensuality, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming

SN 56.11
:candle:
theY wrote:
Thu May 24, 2018 4:47 am
Because he want to lie you "upatti-bhava doesn't depend on upādāna". Actually, if you see the fulltext, it is already showed upatti-bhava(jāti of upādāna-khanda) depending on upādāna. So, the buddha called "upādāna-khandhā dukkha (ariya sacca)", not called "taṇhā-khandha" in that sutta. And the buddha also taught upādāna as "(because taṇhā) connected with desire and enjoyment, (by taṇhā) finding delight here or there" in the same text, too. He lie you, he cut tipitaka context off, to make you confuse.
I explained the same as The Y. Maybe The Y should make their mind calm and read clearly before answering. :meditate: To study Dhamma without developing concentration leads to rebirth in hell. :lol:
Last edited by DooDoot on Thu May 24, 2018 5:18 am, edited 10 times in total.

SarathW
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Re: What is the difference between Tanha and Upadana?

Post by SarathW » Thu May 24, 2018 5:03 am

Thanks guys
I create a new post to address this particular issue.
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=31955
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: What is the difference between Tanha and Upadana?

Post by DooDoot » Thu May 24, 2018 5:43 am

SarathW wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 12:38 am
What is the difference between Tanha and Upadana?
In my opinion, the difference between Tanha and Upadana is:

1. Tanha is not thinking. Tanha is the urge, push & pull energy of defilement (kilesa) towards or away from a sense-object that is felt. Craving is agitation but not yet suffering. For example, MN 148 appears to describe knowing craving without suffering.

2. Upadana is thinking (papanca) arising from craving fixation upon a sense object. Upadana is suffering because it is bondage & a spear. With upadana, the mind loses its spaciousness & freedom. The 1st Noble Truth appears to say upadana is suffering.

3. For example, if the mind thinks: "I want this"; in my opinion, the want is tanha and the "I" is upadana. For example, MN 140 appears to say "conceiving I am" is suffering; is a dart; is an arrow; is a spear; is a cancer.

:smile:

From Vism. XVII.242 (see the highlighted parts):
Craving is the aspiring to an object that one has not yet reached, like a thief’s stretching out his hand in the dark; clinging is the grasping of an object that one has reached, like the thief’s grasping his objective.

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Re: What is the difference between Tanha and Upadana?

Post by James Tan » Thu May 24, 2018 7:04 am

DooDoot wrote:
Thu May 24, 2018 5:43 am

And what is becoming? These three are becomings: sensual becoming, form becoming, & formless becoming. This is called becoming.
SN 12.2

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

And this, monks, is the noble truth of the origination of stress: the craving that makes for further becoming—accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there—i.e., craving for sensuality, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming

SN 56.11
From
Form becoming and Formless becoming
Change to
Becoming and Non becoming ,

Can you explain why ?
:reading:

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Re: What is the difference between Tanha and Upadana?

Post by DooDoot » Thu May 24, 2018 8:26 am

James Tan wrote:
Thu May 24, 2018 7:04 am
From
Form becoming and Formless becoming
Change to
Becoming and Non becoming ,

Can you explain why ?
I provided my personal opinion that:

1. Four Noble Truths was a brief introductory teaching therefore the 2nd noble truth summaries Dependent Origination in the most general way. The Four Truths was taught to five beginner ascetics in the Deer Park.

2. Dependent Origination is a detailed teaching therefore the words are often different to reflect the detail. However, some words are not included, such as kamatanha, bhavatanha & vibhava tanha because the Buddha decided to emphasize craving for the six sense contacts.

3. For example, becoming ("bhava") in Dependent Origination must also include "non-becoming" ("vibhava").

4. For example, MN 148 teaches Dependent Origination in a different way, by listing craving as the underlying tendencies of "greed", "hatred" and "ignorance".

5. For example, the quote below describes many types of becoming & non-becoming for form & formlessness:
'I am' is a construing. 'I am this' is a construing. 'I shall be' is a construing. 'I shall not be'... 'I shall be possessed of form'... 'I shall not be possessed of form'... 'I shall be percipient'... 'I shall not be percipient'... 'I shall be neither percipient nor non-percipient' is a construing

MN 140
6. My reading of the suttas finds many different combinations & ways of teaching the same subject.

:smile:
SarathW wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 12:38 am
There are three kinds of Tanha in Sutta. (Kama, Bhava, Vibhava)
I personally doubt there are these three kinds of Tanha in Sutta (Kama, Bhava, Vibhava). These three Pali terms are found in the following verse, which includes a mixture of different dhammas:
And this, monks, is the noble truth of the origination of stress: the craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there — i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming.

SN 56.11
Therefore, the terms "kamatanha", "bhavatanha" and "vibhava tanha" might represent the fruition of tanha, delight (attachment) and becoming. They might be better translated as "sensual craving"; "to-be-craving" and "not-to-be-craving" because they might be, in reality, a mixture of craving, delight & becoming.
SarathW wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 12:38 am
Please explain how these three link to Upadana.
"Delight" ("nandi") is a synonym for "upadana" (attachment) and delight is already included within these three manifestations or fruitions of craving according to what the Lord Buddha taught. To quote:
And this, monks, is the noble truth of the origination of stress: the craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there — i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming.

SN 56.11
The "upadana" is highlighted in red color above. MN 38 says: "Delight is attachment". :thanks:
Last edited by DooDoot on Thu May 24, 2018 8:53 am, edited 3 times in total.

SarathW
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Re: What is the difference between Tanha and Upadana?

Post by SarathW » Thu May 24, 2018 8:48 am

Dependent Origination must also include "non-becoming" ("vibhava").
This is incorrect.
How can you include Vibhava (Nibbana) in DO?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: What is the difference between Tanha and Upadana?

Post by DooDoot » Thu May 24, 2018 8:51 am

SarathW wrote:
Thu May 24, 2018 8:48 am
This is incorrect.
How can you include Vibhava (Nibbana) in DO?
Vibhava is not Nibbana according to the Pali suttas. Since you appear to have no faith in those sincerely interested in the truth & study, maybe ask a bhikkhu, such as Venerable Dhammanando or Sujato, so you can believe the monk with blind faith. Vibhava is not Nibbana. Buddhism 101. :heart:
How, bhikkhus, do some overreach? Now some are troubled, ashamed, and disgusted by this very same being and they rejoice in (the idea of) non-being, asserting: ‘In as much as this self, good sirs, when the body perishes at death, is annihilated and destroyed and does not exist after death—this is peaceful, this is excellent, this is reality!’ Thus, bhikkhus, do some overreach.

Kathañca, bhikkhave, atidhāvanti eke? Bhaveneva kho paneke aṭṭīyamānā harāyamānā jigucchamānā vibhavaṃ abhinandanti—yato kira, bho, ayaṃ attā kāyassa bhedā paraṃ maraṇā ucchijjati vinassati na hoti paraṃ maraṇā; etaṃ santaṃ etaṃ paṇītaṃ etaṃ yāthāvanti. Evaṃ kho, bhikkhave, atidhāvanti eke.

iti 49
They neither make a choice nor form an intention to continue existence or to exterminate existence.

So neva taṃ abhisaṅkharoti, na abhisañcetayati bhavāya vā vibhavāya vā.

Because of this, they don’t grasp at anything in the world.

So anabhisaṅkharonto anabhisañcetayanto bhavāya vā vibhavāya vā na kiñci loke upādiyati

MN 140
Last edited by DooDoot on Thu May 24, 2018 9:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

SarathW
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Re: What is the difference between Tanha and Upadana?

Post by SarathW » Thu May 24, 2018 9:01 am

Vibhava is not Nibbana.
Fair enough but I create a new topic.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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DooDoot
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Re: What is the difference between Tanha and Upadana?

Post by DooDoot » Thu May 24, 2018 9:04 am

SarathW wrote:
Thu May 24, 2018 9:01 am
Fair enough but I create a new topic.
Its not fair enough because you falsely accused a person of being incorrect & being a liar. What is fair enough is you make a confession to the Triple Gem. Its evening time here. You should know the evening Pali chanting where confession is made at the end of each refuge.

I have some good karma to do now for a Buddhist friend (I am already late) and must do my evening walking meditation. :namaste:
By body, by speech and by mind
Whatever evil Kamrna has been done by me To the Buddha... Dhamma... Noble Sangha
May the Buddha ... Dhamma... Noble Sangha accept the whole fault,
That in future there may be restraint Regarding the Buddha ... Dhamma... Noble Sangha

http://methika.com/wp-content/uploads/2 ... book-1.pdf

James Tan
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Re: What is the difference between Tanha and Upadana?

Post by James Tan » Thu May 24, 2018 10:51 am

DooDoot wrote:
Thu May 24, 2018 8:26 am
James Tan wrote:
Thu May 24, 2018 7:04 am
From
Form becoming and Formless becoming
Change to
Becoming and Non becoming ,

Can you explain why ?
I provided my personal opinion that:

1. Four Noble Truths was a brief introductory teaching therefore the 2nd noble truth summaries Dependent Origination in the most general way. The Four Truths was taught to five beginner ascetics in the Deer Park.

2. Dependent Origination is a detailed teaching therefore the words are often different to reflect the detail. However, some words are not included, such as kamatanha, bhavatanha & vibhava tanha because the Buddha decided to emphasize craving for the six sense contacts.

3. For example, becoming ("bhava") in Dependent Origination must also include "non-becoming" ("vibhava").

4. For example, MN 148 teaches Dependent Origination in a different way, by listing craving as the underlying tendencies of "greed", "hatred" and "ignorance".

5. For example, the quote below describes many types of becoming & non-becoming for form & formlessness:
'I am' is a construing. 'I am this' is a construing. 'I shall be' is a construing. 'I shall not be'... 'I shall be possessed of form'... 'I shall not be possessed of form'... 'I shall be percipient'... 'I shall not be percipient'... 'I shall be neither percipient nor non-percipient' is a construing

MN 140
6. My reading of the suttas finds many different combinations & ways of teaching the same subject.

:smile:

Vibhava translate as non becoming or extermination becoming ? Why Not Formless becoming ? I think both is not the same .

Formless is not extermination or annihilation.

There is only 3 category of realm of becoming .
Kama, Rupa and Arupa becoming.
Extermination is not any of the above becoming .

Why use extermination or non ?
:reading:

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Re: What is the difference between Tanha and Upadana?

Post by DooDoot » Thu May 24, 2018 12:18 pm

James Tan wrote:
Thu May 24, 2018 10:51 am
Vibhava translate as non becoming or extermination becoming ? Why Not Formless becoming ?
It appears the mind can cling to formlessness, which is becoming, as follows:
If there were no kamma ripening in the formless-property, would formless-becoming be discerned?

No, lord.

Thus kamma is the field, consciousness the seed and craving the moisture. The consciousness of living beings hindered by ignorance & fettered by craving is established in/tuned to a refined [formless] property. Thus there is the production of renewed becoming in the future. This is how there is becoming.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
To an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person, touched by experience born of the contact of ignorance, there occur (the thoughts): 'I am,' 'I am thus,' 'I shall be,' 'I shall not be,' 'I shall be possessed of form,' 'I shall be formless,' 'I shall be percipient (conscious),' 'I shall be non-percipient,' or 'I shall be neither percipient nor non-percipient.'

The well-instructed disciple of the noble ones abandons ignorance and gives rise to clear knowing. Owing to the fading of ignorance and the arising of clear knowing, (the thoughts) — 'I am,' 'I am this,' 'I shall be,' 'I shall not be,' 'I shall be possessed of form,' 'I shall be formless,' 'I shall be percipient (conscious),' 'I shall be non-percipient,' and 'I shall be neither percipient nor non-percipient' — do not occur to him.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
:candle:
James Tan wrote:
Thu May 24, 2018 10:51 am
Formless is not extermination or annihilation.
Yes; it seems so.
James Tan wrote:
Thu May 24, 2018 10:51 am
There is only 3 category of realm of becoming . Kama, Rupa and Arupa becoming. Extermination is not any of the above becoming . Why use extermination or non ?
Excellent question for a new topic. This is why I suggested (unlike SarathW) to not attach to the suttas as a rigid dogma but to reflect upon the suttas with wisdom (yoniso manasikara).

'Craving-not-to-be' (vibhava tanha) is obviously a type of becoming (bhava) because it is caused by the idea of "I" or "self". The thought: "I do not want to be this" is obviously a becoming (bhava) that results in suffering (dukkha).
And what is the stress of not getting what is wanted? In beings subject to birth, the wish arises, 'O, may we not be subject to birth, and may birth not come to us.' But this is not to be achieved by wanting.

MN 141
I think you should start a new topic on the question: "Is vibhava is a type of bhava in Dependent Origination?"

:smile: :hello: :thanks: :zzz: (bed time)

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