What is the difference between Tanha and Upadana?

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DooDoot
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Re: What is the difference between Tanha and Upadana?

Post by DooDoot »

SarathW wrote: Thu May 24, 2018 9:01 amFair enough but I create a new topic.
Its not fair enough because you falsely accused a person of being incorrect & being a liar. What is fair enough is you make a confession to the Triple Gem. Its evening time here. You should know the evening Pali chanting where confession is made at the end of each refuge.

I have some good karma to do now for a Buddhist friend (I am already late) and must do my evening walking meditation. :namaste:
By body, by speech and by mind
Whatever evil Kamrna has been done by me To the Buddha... Dhamma... Noble Sangha
May the Buddha ... Dhamma... Noble Sangha accept the whole fault,
That in future there may be restraint Regarding the Buddha ... Dhamma... Noble Sangha

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There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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sentinel
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Re: What is the difference between Tanha and Upadana?

Post by sentinel »

DooDoot wrote: Thu May 24, 2018 8:26 am
James Tan wrote: Thu May 24, 2018 7:04 am From
Form becoming and Formless becoming
Change to
Becoming and Non becoming ,

Can you explain why ?
I provided my personal opinion that:

1. Four Noble Truths was a brief introductory teaching therefore the 2nd noble truth summaries Dependent Origination in the most general way. The Four Truths was taught to five beginner ascetics in the Deer Park.

2. Dependent Origination is a detailed teaching therefore the words are often different to reflect the detail. However, some words are not included, such as kamatanha, bhavatanha & vibhava tanha because the Buddha decided to emphasize craving for the six sense contacts.

3. For example, becoming ("bhava") in Dependent Origination must also include "non-becoming" ("vibhava").

4. For example, MN 148 teaches Dependent Origination in a different way, by listing craving as the underlying tendencies of "greed", "hatred" and "ignorance".

5. For example, the quote below describes many types of becoming & non-becoming for form & formlessness:
'I am' is a construing. 'I am this' is a construing. 'I shall be' is a construing. 'I shall not be'... 'I shall be possessed of form'... 'I shall not be possessed of form'... 'I shall be percipient'... 'I shall not be percipient'... 'I shall be neither percipient nor non-percipient' is a construing

MN 140
6. My reading of the suttas finds many different combinations & ways of teaching the same subject.

:smile:

Vibhava translate as non becoming or extermination becoming ? Why Not Formless becoming ? I think both is not the same .

Formless is not extermination or annihilation.

There is only 3 category of realm of becoming .
Kama, Rupa and Arupa becoming.
Extermination is not any of the above becoming .

Why use extermination or non ?
You always gain by giving
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DooDoot
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Re: What is the difference between Tanha and Upadana?

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James Tan wrote: Thu May 24, 2018 10:51 amVibhava translate as non becoming or extermination becoming ? Why Not Formless becoming ?
It appears the mind can cling to formlessness, which is becoming, as follows:
If there were no kamma ripening in the formless-property, would formless-becoming be discerned?

No, lord.

Thus kamma is the field, consciousness the seed and craving the moisture. The consciousness of living beings hindered by ignorance & fettered by craving is established in/tuned to a refined [formless] property. Thus there is the production of renewed becoming in the future. This is how there is becoming.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
To an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person, touched by experience born of the contact of ignorance, there occur (the thoughts): 'I am,' 'I am thus,' 'I shall be,' 'I shall not be,' 'I shall be possessed of form,' 'I shall be formless,' 'I shall be percipient (conscious),' 'I shall be non-percipient,' or 'I shall be neither percipient nor non-percipient.'

The well-instructed disciple of the noble ones abandons ignorance and gives rise to clear knowing. Owing to the fading of ignorance and the arising of clear knowing, (the thoughts) — 'I am,' 'I am this,' 'I shall be,' 'I shall not be,' 'I shall be possessed of form,' 'I shall be formless,' 'I shall be percipient (conscious),' 'I shall be non-percipient,' and 'I shall be neither percipient nor non-percipient' — do not occur to him.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
:candle:
James Tan wrote: Thu May 24, 2018 10:51 amFormless is not extermination or annihilation.
Yes; it seems so.
James Tan wrote: Thu May 24, 2018 10:51 amThere is only 3 category of realm of becoming . Kama, Rupa and Arupa becoming. Extermination is not any of the above becoming . Why use extermination or non ?
Excellent question for a new topic. This is why I suggested (unlike SarathW) to not attach to the suttas as a rigid dogma but to reflect upon the suttas with wisdom (yoniso manasikara).

'Craving-not-to-be' (vibhava tanha) is obviously a type of becoming (bhava) because it is caused by the idea of "I" or "self". The thought: "I do not want to be this" is obviously a becoming (bhava) that results in suffering (dukkha).
And what is the stress of not getting what is wanted? In beings subject to birth, the wish arises, 'O, may we not be subject to birth, and may birth not come to us.' But this is not to be achieved by wanting.

MN 141
I think you should start a new topic on the question: "Is vibhava is a type of bhava in Dependent Origination?"

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diligence
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Re: What is the difference between Tanha and Upadana?

Post by diligence »

SarathW wrote: Wed May 23, 2018 12:38 am What is the difference between Tanha and Upadana?
Perhaps ten tanha or more become upadana. The difference is degree and intensity. If someone likes to eat meat, it is tanha. I also like that taste. If he does not control himself and want more and more each meal and cannot live without having meat, than it become upadana. For this reason he will earn more money and even do some unwholesome acts in order to satisfy his upadana.
(Sorry for English is not a native language)
With the arising of delight, there is the arising of suffering. With the cessation of delight, comes the cessation of suffering.
Nandisamudayā dukkhasamudayo, nandinirodhā dukkhanirodho.
Dukkhameva uppajjamānaṃ uppajjati, dukkhaṃ nirujjhamānaṃ nirujjhati.
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