Is Buddhism exclusive ?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
James Tan
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Re: Is Buddhism exclusive ?

Post by James Tan » Tue May 22, 2018 1:49 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 1:44 am
James Tan wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 1:24 am
...There is no joy in the life and in practicing the dhamma because everything is suffering .
you should try it before you talk about what the practice is and isnt
Dhp chapter 5
For a bhikkhu with a peaceful mind, Who enters an empty dwelling And clearly sees the true Dharma, There is superhuman joy
Please ask any buddhist with ten or twenty years experience in Buddhism how they feel ? Before anyone attain any absorption , what joy do they have ?
:reading:

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rightviewftw
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Re: Is Buddhism exclusive ?

Post by rightviewftw » Tue May 22, 2018 1:52 am

James Tan wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 1:49 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 1:44 am
James Tan wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 1:24 am
...There is no joy in the life and in practicing the dhamma because everything is suffering .
you should try it before you talk about what the practice is and isnt
Dhp chapter 5
For a bhikkhu with a peaceful mind, Who enters an empty dwelling And clearly sees the true Dharma, There is superhuman joy
..Before anyone attain any absorption , what joy do they have ?
joy of renunciation, joy of non-regret, first 4 factored jhana, second 4 factored jhana, 3rd four factored jhana, 4th four factored jhana
How to Destroy any addiction
How to Meditate: Satipatthana Mahasi
Медитация Сатипаттхана Випассана
How To Develop Factors of Enlightenment & Perceptions
Complete Manual of Insight by Mahasi Sayadaw
Tyranny of Words - An Introduction to General Semantics
Ledi Sayadaw's Anapana Dipani (Samatha) @ ffmt.fr/articles/maitres/LediS/anapana-dipani.ledi-sayadaw.pdf
Dhammapada @ myweb.ncku.edu.tw/~lsn46/tipitaka/sutta/khuddaka/dhammapada/dhp-contrast-reading/dhp-contrast-reading-en/
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mikenz66
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Re: Is Buddhism exclusive ?

Post by mikenz66 » Tue May 22, 2018 6:35 am

James Tan wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 1:49 am


Please ask any buddhist with ten or twenty years experience in Buddhism how they feel ? Before anyone attain any absorption , what joy do they have ?
Do you actually know people who have been practising for 20 years without feeling positive effects?

I've never met such a person, and I can't imagine why such a person would continue.

Perhaps they missed the suttas on happiness in the present life....

viewtopic.php?f=25&t=14640

Mike

James Tan
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Re: Is Buddhism exclusive ?

Post by James Tan » Tue May 22, 2018 7:00 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 6:35 am
James Tan wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 1:49 am


Please ask any buddhist with ten or twenty years experience in Buddhism how they feel ? Before anyone attain any absorption , what joy do they have ?
Do you actually know people who have been practising for 20 years without feeling positive effects?

I've never met such a person, and I can't imagine why such a person would continue.

Perhaps they missed the suttas on happiness in the present life....

viewtopic.php?f=25&t=14640

Mike
Have you ever met someone disrobe after over ten or fifteen years in monkhood ?
If they are so happy , no reason to leave the monastic life !
Too many you can find . Or you don't pay attention at all.
:reading:

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mikenz66
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Re: Is Buddhism exclusive ?

Post by mikenz66 » Tue May 22, 2018 8:53 am

James Tan wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 7:00 am
Have you ever met someone disrobe after over ten or fifteen years in monkhood ?
If they are so happy , no reason to leave the monastic life !
Too many you can find . Or you don't pay attention at all.
Of course, I know several people who have disrobed, and some who have rerobed after disrobing...

Disrobing is a completely different issue. Your original post seemed to suggest that the majority of practicing Buddhists saw no benefit, which is not my experience.

:heart:
Mike

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rightviewftw
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Re: Is Buddhism exclusive ?

Post by rightviewftw » Tue May 22, 2018 8:55 am

James Tan wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 7:00 am
mikenz66 wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 6:35 am
James Tan wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 1:49 am


Please ask any buddhist with ten or twenty years experience in Buddhism how they feel ? Before anyone attain any absorption , what joy do they have ?
Do you actually know people who have been practising for 20 years without feeling positive effects?

I've never met such a person, and I can't imagine why such a person would continue.

Perhaps they missed the suttas on happiness in the present life....

viewtopic.php?f=25&t=14640

Mike
Have you ever met someone disrobe after over ten or fifteen years in monkhood ?
If they are so happy , no reason to leave the monastic life !
Too many you can find . Or you don't pay attention at all.
Nobody said that it is easy, but so it is with most worthwhile pursuits in life. People disrobe for many reasons and there are several reasons for a Bhikkhu's decline and discontentment. However if one lets "difficult" discourage from trying it is going to be hard to achieve anything in life, it is the impossible factor that should be discouraging and even then just because nobody done it before does not in itself mean that it is impossible to do or that one should not try.

Clearly there are Bhikkhus who are happy and content.

It is hard to get GM ranked in chess, to place in the olympics, to become world champion, to beat the nosebleed holdem games or to get world class expertise in professional fields, probably >95% of people who want to achieve such goals or merely becoming professionals never make it, does not mean that it is impossible or not worth doing. Does not even mean that it is "exclusive" really because one can argue that talent plays relatively miniscule role relative to work ethic, methodology and commitment. Imo talent will separate the top 5 from the top 50 but the top 500 out of millions can get there by work alone generally speaking.

I don't want to liken the pursuit of Dhamma to pursuit of top ranking in competitive fields because it is different in many ways but my point is that people generally prone to doing things half heartedly and giving up.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Tue May 22, 2018 9:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
How to Destroy any addiction
How to Meditate: Satipatthana Mahasi
Медитация Сатипаттхана Випассана
How To Develop Factors of Enlightenment & Perceptions
Complete Manual of Insight by Mahasi Sayadaw
Tyranny of Words - An Introduction to General Semantics
Ledi Sayadaw's Anapana Dipani (Samatha) @ ffmt.fr/articles/maitres/LediS/anapana-dipani.ledi-sayadaw.pdf
Dhammapada @ myweb.ncku.edu.tw/~lsn46/tipitaka/sutta/khuddaka/dhammapada/dhp-contrast-reading/dhp-contrast-reading-en/
don't feed the trolls

James Tan
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Re: Is Buddhism exclusive ?

Post by James Tan » Tue May 22, 2018 9:10 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 8:53 am
James Tan wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 7:00 am
Have you ever met someone disrobe after over ten or fifteen years in monkhood ?
If they are so happy , no reason to leave the monastic life !
Too many you can find . Or you don't pay attention at all.
Of course, I know several people who have disrobed, and some who have rerobed after disrobing...

Disrobing is a completely different issue. Your original post seemed to suggest that the majority of practicing Buddhists saw no benefit, which is not my experience.

:heart:
Mike
I did not say no benefit . Only that if Buddhism preach suffering , what is it that in this world is happiness and joyful about . Basically non at the end .
:reading:

James Tan
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Re: Is Buddhism exclusive ?

Post by James Tan » Tue May 22, 2018 9:14 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 8:55 am
James Tan wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 7:00 am
mikenz66 wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 6:35 am

Do you actually know people who have been practising for 20 years without feeling positive effects?

I've never met such a person, and I can't imagine why such a person would continue.

Perhaps they missed the suttas on happiness in the present life....

viewtopic.php?f=25&t=14640

Mike
Have you ever met someone disrobe after over ten or fifteen years in monkhood ?
If they are so happy , no reason to leave the monastic life !
Too many you can find . Or you don't pay attention at all.
Nobody said that it is easy, but so it is with most worthwhile pursuits in life. People disrobe for many reasons and there are several reasons for a Bhikkhu's decline and discontentment. However if one lets "difficult" discourage from trying it is going to be hard to achieve anything in life, it is the impossible factor that should be discouraging and even then just because nobody done it before does not in itself mean that it is impossible to do or that one should not try.

Clearly there are Bhikkhus who are happy and content.

It is hard to get GM ranked in chess, to place in the olympics, to become world champion, to beat the nosebleed holdem games or to get world class expertise in professional fields, probably >95% of people who want to achieve such goals or merely becoming professionals never make it, does not mean that it is impossible or not worth doing. Does not even mean that it is "exclusive" really because one can argue that talent plays relatively miniscule role relative to work ethic, methodology and commitment. Imo talent will separate the top 5 from the top 50 but the top 500 out of millions can get there by work alone generally speaking.
Let me ask you a question . Since beginning till now how many years your learning in Buddhism ?
How happy are you ?
:reading:

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Grigoris
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Re: Is Buddhism exclusive ?

Post by Grigoris » Tue May 22, 2018 9:16 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 8:41 am
James Tan wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 6:12 am
Tailoring or catering for or available to only a few, selected, restricted , elite and excellent people .
The Dhamma Wheel membership does suggest that. :tongue:
With some exceptions (myself included). :lol:
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

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rightviewftw
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Re: Is Buddhism exclusive ?

Post by rightviewftw » Tue May 22, 2018 9:16 am

James Tan wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 9:10 am
I did not say no benefit . Only that if Buddhism preach suffering , what is it that in this world is happiness and joyful about . Basically non at the end .
There is no giving up of sensuality without first jhana. The way it works is that one quite secluded starts to attain happiness from meditation, eventually giving up lower pleasure to behold the greater pleasure and tries to attain the superhuman happiness. It is not gloomy as you describe it. In some ways one can be said to be a pleasure seeker, not being satisfied with nothing but the ultimate pleasure.
How to Destroy any addiction
How to Meditate: Satipatthana Mahasi
Медитация Сатипаттхана Випассана
How To Develop Factors of Enlightenment & Perceptions
Complete Manual of Insight by Mahasi Sayadaw
Tyranny of Words - An Introduction to General Semantics
Ledi Sayadaw's Anapana Dipani (Samatha) @ ffmt.fr/articles/maitres/LediS/anapana-dipani.ledi-sayadaw.pdf
Dhammapada @ myweb.ncku.edu.tw/~lsn46/tipitaka/sutta/khuddaka/dhammapada/dhp-contrast-reading/dhp-contrast-reading-en/
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rightviewftw
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Re: Is Buddhism exclusive ?

Post by rightviewftw » Tue May 22, 2018 9:18 am

James Tan wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 9:14 am
Let me ask you a question . Since beginning till now how many years your learning in Buddhism ?
How happy are you ?
Soon 3 years since i started studying Buddhism and 6 years meditating.
I am probably one of the most happy people in the world in general.
How to Destroy any addiction
How to Meditate: Satipatthana Mahasi
Медитация Сатипаттхана Випассана
How To Develop Factors of Enlightenment & Perceptions
Complete Manual of Insight by Mahasi Sayadaw
Tyranny of Words - An Introduction to General Semantics
Ledi Sayadaw's Anapana Dipani (Samatha) @ ffmt.fr/articles/maitres/LediS/anapana-dipani.ledi-sayadaw.pdf
Dhammapada @ myweb.ncku.edu.tw/~lsn46/tipitaka/sutta/khuddaka/dhammapada/dhp-contrast-reading/dhp-contrast-reading-en/
don't feed the trolls

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mikenz66
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Re: Is Buddhism exclusive ?

Post by mikenz66 » Tue May 22, 2018 9:20 am

Hi James, Sorry I don't really know what you are trying to say here:
James Tan wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 9:10 am
I did not say no benefit . Only that if Buddhism preach suffering , what is it that in this world is happiness and joyful about . Basically non at the end .
Previously you said:
James Tan wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 1:49 am
Please ask any buddhist with ten or twenty years experience in Buddhism how they feel ? Before anyone attain any absorption , what joy do they have ?
Since most of my Buddhist friends seem happy, I'd say, they mostly feel happy. :heart:

Mike

James Tan
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Re: Is Buddhism exclusive ?

Post by James Tan » Tue May 22, 2018 9:31 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 9:18 am
James Tan wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 9:14 am
Let me ask you a question . Since beginning till now how many years your learning in Buddhism ?
How happy are you ?
Soon 3 years since i started studying Buddhism and 6 years meditating.
I am probably one of the most happy people in the world in general.
Good for you , but , as you said , you will have to abandon the sensual pleasure first which is denying worldly happiness.
:reading:

James Tan
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Re: Is Buddhism exclusive ?

Post by James Tan » Tue May 22, 2018 9:33 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 9:20 am
Hi James, Sorry I don't really know what you are trying to say here:
James Tan wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 9:10 am
I did not say no benefit . Only that if Buddhism preach suffering , what is it that in this world is happiness and joyful about . Basically non at the end .
Previously you said:
James Tan wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 1:49 am
Please ask any buddhist with ten or twenty years experience in Buddhism how they feel ? Before anyone attain any absorption , what joy do they have ?
Since most of my Buddhist friends seem happy, I'd say, they mostly feel happy. :heart:

Mike
I am happy for them . But , their happiness is not lasting that's why I said not really happy .
:reading:

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binocular
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Re: Is Buddhism exclusive ?

Post by binocular » Tue May 22, 2018 9:35 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 9:20 am
Since most of my Buddhist friends seem happy, I'd say, they mostly feel happy.
The question is whether this happiness of theirs has anything to do with their Buddhist practice.
Or is it that they're happy despite their Buddhist practice?

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