Why should abandoning sensual pleasures lead to unhappiness?
Mike
Because merely abandoning sensual pleasures does not suffice for happiness.
“Even though a disciple of the noble ones has clearly seen as it has come to be with right discernment that sensuality is of much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks, still—if he has not attained a rapture & pleasure apart from sensuality, apart from unskillful qualities, or something more peaceful than that—he can be tempted by sensuality. But when he has clearly seen as it has come to be with right discernment that sensuality is of much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks, and he has attained a rapture & pleasure apart from sensuality, apart from unskillful qualities, or something more peaceful than that, he cannot be tempted by sensuality.” — MN 14
I remembered one instance where some nuns complaining about lacking offering of material requisites which is material comfort although they are happy being nuns which means they are worried and this is unhappiness .
I didn't say it was easy to abandon sensual pleasures, or that all practitioners are happy all of the time. I was querying what seemed to be a suggestion that Buddhist practice leads to unhappiness:binocular wrote: ↑Tue May 22, 2018 9:55 amBecause merely abandoning sensual pleasures does not suffice for happiness.
“Even though a disciple of the noble ones has clearly seen as it has come to be with right discernment that sensuality is of much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks, still—if he has not attained a rapture & pleasure apart from sensuality, apart from unskillful qualities, or something more peaceful than that—he can be tempted by sensuality. But when he has clearly seen as it has come to be with right discernment that sensuality is of much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks, and he has attained a rapture & pleasure apart from sensuality, apart from unskillful qualities, or something more peaceful than that, he cannot be tempted by sensuality.” — MN 14
And this readiness includes material readiness, not just psychological willingness. Psychological willingness doesn't suffice when the material readiness isn't in place.DNS wrote: ↑Mon May 21, 2018 9:33 pmThe Buddha is said to have been somewhat reluctant to teach due to everyone going around "sleep-walking" but was encouraged to teach due to some with "little dust in their eyes." In this way, it can be seen as somewhat exclusive and elitist in that people have to be ready for it.
Which doesn't mean that this will hold for everyone; in fact, it doesn't. It appears it holds only for those who have already accumulated enough merit, which created a fertile ground for a more dedicated practice. Whereas people who lack such merit can try all they want, and it won't amount to anything much beyond misery.
And some proposed forms of Buddhist practice indeed lead to unhappiness, because they are incomplete (as they focus only on abandoning sensual pleasures, but not on cultivating other aspects of the path). If such Buddhists are happy, then they are happy despite their Buddhist practice, not because of it.
Why? You "appropriate" Buddhism just as much as anyone else does. The only relevant difference is that after nearly a decade and 5,200-odd posts here, you are saying things like:
I'll give credit when I think that your appropriation shows some glimmerings of wisdom, and is not an utter waste of time.I don't feel excluded from Buddhism because of my "bad experiences with Buddhists". Bah, that's shallow. I feel exlcuded from it because I am utterly foreign to it, alien to it. I cannot but treat Buddhism with "an alien cultural overlay".
I think these posts touch on very interesting topics regarding non-predeterminism in light of non-self and the beginningless nature of existence, wont get into it now tho.binocular wrote: ↑Tue May 22, 2018 10:09 amAnd this readiness includes material readiness, not just psychological willingness. Psychological willingness doesn't suffice when the material readiness isn't in place.DNS wrote: ↑Mon May 21, 2018 9:33 pmThe Buddha is said to have been somewhat reluctant to teach due to everyone going around "sleep-walking" but was encouraged to teach due to some with "little dust in their eyes." In this way, it can be seen as somewhat exclusive and elitist in that people have to be ready for it.
If anything, many people lack the material readiness, which is due to not having made enough merit. Making merit is not something that is emphasized in Western/American approaches to Buddhist practice and to understanding Buddhism, but it is considered of central importance in traditionally Buddhist cultures in Asia.
Which doesn't mean that this will hold for everyone; in fact, it doesn't. It appears it holds only for those who have already accumulated enough merit, which created a fertile ground for a more dedicated practice. Whereas people who lack such merit can try all they want, and it won't amount to anything much beyond misery.
If one has politically correct sensitivities, yes ...
No, not at all, just someone refraining from giving credit when it is asked for.
No. As far as I can see, I'm one of the few people who's aware of religious boundaries and is able to discuss them. Most people experience this in a negative way, as "One step forward, one step back". Or "two steps back", as the case may be.
This reminds me of literature classes in highschool. We had the same teacher for all four years, so there was a certain sense of continuity and familiarity. And yet at the end of the fourth year, after having read and analyzed together yet another great book of literature, I asked something like, "But how do we know that our analyses are true? How can we know what the author really meant?" And I was met with disdain and incredulity.The only relevant difference is that after nearly a decade and 5,200-odd posts here, you are saying things like:I don't feel excluded from Buddhism because of my "bad experiences with Buddhists". Bah, that's shallow. I feel exlcuded from it because I am utterly foreign to it, alien to it. I cannot but treat Buddhism with "an alien cultural overlay".