Is Buddhism exclusive ?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 16460
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: Is Buddhism exclusive ?

Post by mikenz66 » Tue May 22, 2018 9:50 am

James Tan wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 9:31 am
Good for you , but , as you said , you will have to abandon the sensual pleasure first which is denying worldly happiness.
Why should abandoning sensual pleasures lead to unhappiness?

:heart:
Mike

binocular
Posts: 5638
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: Is Buddhism exclusive ?

Post by binocular » Tue May 22, 2018 9:55 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 9:50 am
Why should abandoning sensual pleasures lead to unhappiness?
Because merely abandoning sensual pleasures does not suffice for happiness.
“Even though a disciple of the noble ones has clearly seen as it has come to be with right discernment that sensuality is of much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks, still—if he has not attained a rapture & pleasure apart from sensuality, apart from unskillful qualities, or something more peaceful than that—he can be tempted by sensuality. But when he has clearly seen as it has come to be with right discernment that sensuality is of much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks, and he has attained a rapture & pleasure apart from sensuality, apart from unskillful qualities, or something more peaceful than that, he cannot be tempted by sensuality.” — MN 14
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

James Tan
Posts: 963
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: Is Buddhism exclusive ?

Post by James Tan » Tue May 22, 2018 9:59 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 9:50 am
James Tan wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 9:31 am
Good for you , but , as you said , you will have to abandon the sensual pleasure first which is denying worldly happiness.
Why should abandoning sensual pleasures lead to unhappiness?

:heart:
Mike
I remembered one instance where some nuns complaining about lacking offering of material requisites which is material comfort although they are happy being nuns which means they are worried and this is unhappiness .
:reading:

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 16460
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: Is Buddhism exclusive ?

Post by mikenz66 » Tue May 22, 2018 10:05 am

binocular wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 9:55 am
mikenz66 wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 9:50 am
Why should abandoning sensual pleasures lead to unhappiness?
Because merely abandoning sensual pleasures does not suffice for happiness.
“Even though a disciple of the noble ones has clearly seen as it has come to be with right discernment that sensuality is of much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks, still—if he has not attained a rapture & pleasure apart from sensuality, apart from unskillful qualities, or something more peaceful than that—he can be tempted by sensuality. But when he has clearly seen as it has come to be with right discernment that sensuality is of much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks, and he has attained a rapture & pleasure apart from sensuality, apart from unskillful qualities, or something more peaceful than that, he cannot be tempted by sensuality.” — MN 14
I didn't say it was easy to abandon sensual pleasures, or that all practitioners are happy all of the time. I was querying what seemed to be a suggestion that Buddhist practice leads to unhappiness:
James Tan wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 9:31 am
you will have to abandon the sensual pleasure first which is denying worldly happiness.
:heart:
Mike

binocular
Posts: 5638
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: Is Buddhism exclusive ?

Post by binocular » Tue May 22, 2018 10:09 am

DNS wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 9:33 pm
The Buddha is said to have been somewhat reluctant to teach due to everyone going around "sleep-walking" but was encouraged to teach due to some with "little dust in their eyes." In this way, it can be seen as somewhat exclusive and elitist in that people have to be ready for it.
And this readiness includes material readiness, not just psychological willingness. Psychological willingness doesn't suffice when the material readiness isn't in place.

If anything, many people lack the material readiness, which is due to not having made enough merit. Making merit is not something that is emphasized in Western/American approaches to Buddhist practice and to understanding Buddhism, but it is considered of central importance in traditionally Buddhist cultures in Asia.

mikenz66 wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 9:42 am
For me, and many people I know, it is the former. Taking up a Buddhist practice increased happiness.
Which doesn't mean that this will hold for everyone; in fact, it doesn't. It appears it holds only for those who have already accumulated enough merit, which created a fertile ground for a more dedicated practice. Whereas people who lack such merit can try all they want, and it won't amount to anything much beyond misery.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

binocular
Posts: 5638
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: Is Buddhism exclusive ?

Post by binocular » Tue May 22, 2018 10:12 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 10:05 am
I didn't say it was easy to abandon sensual pleasures, or that all practitioners are happy all of the time. I was querying what seemed to be a suggestion that Buddhist practice leads to unhappiness
And some proposed forms of Buddhist practice indeed lead to unhappiness, because they are incomplete (as they focus only on abandoning sensual pleasures, but not on cultivating other aspects of the path). If such Buddhists are happy, then they are happy despite their Buddhist practice, not because of it.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

User avatar
Sam Vara
Posts: 4409
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Sussex, U.K.

Re: Is Buddhism exclusive ?

Post by Sam Vara » Tue May 22, 2018 10:31 am

binocular wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 9:38 am
You should be giving me credit for not appropriating Buddhism.
Why? You "appropriate" Buddhism just as much as anyone else does. The only relevant difference is that after nearly a decade and 5,200-odd posts here, you are saying things like:
I don't feel excluded from Buddhism because of my "bad experiences with Buddhists". Bah, that's shallow. I feel exlcuded from it because I am utterly foreign to it, alien to it. I cannot but treat Buddhism with "an alien cultural overlay".
I'll give credit when I think that your appropriation shows some glimmerings of wisdom, and is not an utter waste of time.

User avatar
rightviewftw
Posts: 1957
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Re: Is Buddhism exclusive ?

Post by rightviewftw » Tue May 22, 2018 10:38 am

Perhaps people could feel excluded because there is a lot of arguing on the forum and it is not much of a hugbox, at least for me it is not. People could get a sense that their views are not welcome and that they are shitty Buddhists is what i mean.
He goes to Niraya, the one who asserts what didn't take place, as does the one who, having done, says, 'I didn't.' Both — low-acting people — there become equal: after death, in the world beyond.
Tyranny of Words - An Introduction to General Semantics
How to Meditate: Mindfulness of Breathing
Factors of Enlightenment & Perceptions
How to Meditate: Basic Satipatthana
Parallel Dhammapada Reading

User avatar
rightviewftw
Posts: 1957
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Re: Is Buddhism exclusive ?

Post by rightviewftw » Tue May 22, 2018 10:56 am

binocular wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 10:09 am
DNS wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 9:33 pm
The Buddha is said to have been somewhat reluctant to teach due to everyone going around "sleep-walking" but was encouraged to teach due to some with "little dust in their eyes." In this way, it can be seen as somewhat exclusive and elitist in that people have to be ready for it.
And this readiness includes material readiness, not just psychological willingness. Psychological willingness doesn't suffice when the material readiness isn't in place.

If anything, many people lack the material readiness, which is due to not having made enough merit. Making merit is not something that is emphasized in Western/American approaches to Buddhist practice and to understanding Buddhism, but it is considered of central importance in traditionally Buddhist cultures in Asia.

mikenz66 wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 9:42 am
For me, and many people I know, it is the former. Taking up a Buddhist practice increased happiness.
Which doesn't mean that this will hold for everyone; in fact, it doesn't. It appears it holds only for those who have already accumulated enough merit, which created a fertile ground for a more dedicated practice. Whereas people who lack such merit can try all they want, and it won't amount to anything much beyond misery.
I think these posts touch on very interesting topics regarding non-predeterminism in light of non-self and the beginningless nature of existence, wont get into it now tho.

In regards to merit and lack of thereof i think an interesting aspect of it is that a lot of possible actions we can make in this life have immeasurable amount of merit, which is a peculiar amount of merit. In regards to this i think one should be careful not to underestimate the potential for turning things around in this life. I have always viewed the introduction of the vipaka of Satipatthana meditation to be akin to bringing nuclear weapons to a knife fight.
He goes to Niraya, the one who asserts what didn't take place, as does the one who, having done, says, 'I didn't.' Both — low-acting people — there become equal: after death, in the world beyond.
Tyranny of Words - An Introduction to General Semantics
How to Meditate: Mindfulness of Breathing
Factors of Enlightenment & Perceptions
How to Meditate: Basic Satipatthana
Parallel Dhammapada Reading

binocular
Posts: 5638
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: Is Buddhism exclusive ?

Post by binocular » Tue May 22, 2018 11:03 am

Sam Vara wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 10:31 am
I'll give credit when I think that your appropriation shows some glimmerings of wisdom, and is not an utter waste of time.
Oh, you're one of the enlightened ones!
:woohoo:
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

binocular
Posts: 5638
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: Is Buddhism exclusive ?

Post by binocular » Tue May 22, 2018 11:04 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 10:38 am
Perhaps people could feel excluded because there is a lot of arguing on the forum and it is not much of a hugbox, at least for me it is not. People could get a sense that their views are not welcome and that they are shitty Buddhists is what i mean.
If one has politically correct sensitivities, yes ...
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

User avatar
Sam Vara
Posts: 4409
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Sussex, U.K.

Re: Is Buddhism exclusive ?

Post by Sam Vara » Tue May 22, 2018 11:08 am

binocular wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 11:03 am
Sam Vara wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 10:31 am
I'll give credit when I think that your appropriation shows some glimmerings of wisdom, and is not an utter waste of time.
Oh, you're one of the enlightened ones!
:woohoo:
No, not at all, just someone refraining from giving credit when it is asked for.

binocular
Posts: 5638
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: Is Buddhism exclusive ?

Post by binocular » Tue May 22, 2018 11:20 am

Sam Vara wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 10:31 am
binocular wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 9:38 am
You should be giving me credit for not appropriating Buddhism.
Why? You "appropriate" Buddhism just as much as anyone else does.
No. As far as I can see, I'm one of the few people who's aware of religious boundaries and is able to discuss them. Most people experience this in a negative way, as "One step forward, one step back". Or "two steps back", as the case may be.
The only relevant difference is that after nearly a decade and 5,200-odd posts here, you are saying things like:
I don't feel excluded from Buddhism because of my "bad experiences with Buddhists". Bah, that's shallow. I feel exlcuded from it because I am utterly foreign to it, alien to it. I cannot but treat Buddhism with "an alien cultural overlay".
This reminds me of literature classes in highschool. We had the same teacher for all four years, so there was a certain sense of continuity and familiarity. And yet at the end of the fourth year, after having read and analyzed together yet another great book of literature, I asked something like, "But how do we know that our analyses are true? How can we know what the author really meant?" And I was met with disdain and incredulity.

It's like that in religions as well. People slowly internalize bits of the religion they happen to be interested in, but rarely, if ever, question their most fundamental motives for their interest in said religion, or their qualifications for it. Instead, they become sure, confident, they have faith, they believe they see benefits of their religious practice, they get comfortable. They take for granted. They go along, they get along. They consume. And they get horribly offended by anyone who sticks around but who doesn't fit this pattern.

In fact, I think everyone would benefit from coming to the point I'm at, because that's the point at which one's interests and commitments can begin to be properly analyzed and evaluated.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

User avatar
Sam Vara
Posts: 4409
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Sussex, U.K.

Re: Is Buddhism exclusive ?

Post by Sam Vara » Tue May 22, 2018 11:42 am

binocular wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 11:20 am
...
Sorry, excepting the personal anecdote, I consider the whole of your post to be factually inaccurate and muddled. But good luck with it anyway.

User avatar
seeker242
Posts: 744
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:01 am

Re: Is Buddhism exclusive ?

Post by seeker242 » Tue May 22, 2018 12:02 pm

James Tan wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 9:10 am
what is it that in this world is happiness and joyful about
Mudita isn't a divine abode for no reason. :smile:

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Volovsky and 87 guests