Is Buddhism exclusive ?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
binocular
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Re: Is Buddhism exclusive ?

Post by binocular » Mon May 21, 2018 8:00 pm

mikenz66 wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 7:54 pm
No but mathematics (in common with many areas of knowledge) other does share with Buddhism the ability to completely take over and shape people's attitude towards their lives.
So does collecting stamps.
I thought that one of the best things about the movie about Stephen Hawking's life (The Theory of Everything) was how it captured his obsession with getting to the Truth - if only he could get the right equation to describe it.... I know people like that...
Sure. And Edison was determined to figure out how to make a functioning lightbulb.
Placing people's particular passions and obsessions on par with Buddhism seems rather perverse, though.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

binocular
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Re: Is Buddhism exclusive ?

Post by binocular » Mon May 21, 2018 8:51 pm

Exclusivity is not necessarily a bad thing.

Granted, most people who have a somewhat leftist, politically correct background, shudder at notions of exclusivity.

But exclusivity is normal. Not everyone is suitable or fit for everything. For example, not everyone is fit to be(come) a ballet dancer. Not everyone is fit to be(come) a lumberjack either. It's just how it is.

Utopian egalitarian notions just get in the way: in worldly matters, but also in religious matters.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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Sam Vara
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Re: Is Buddhism exclusive ?

Post by Sam Vara » Mon May 21, 2018 8:55 pm

binocular wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 7:56 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 1:25 pm
There are two sets of questions here. The first set is to do with "exclusivity" in social and psychological terms; whether Buddhism as expressed tends to exclude certain types of people and rule them out as unworthy or incapable of understanding or following or achieving some specified bits of the Dhamma. That's very much to do with one's own conditioned experiences of Buddhism and Buddhists. If, for example, you deal maladroitly with existing practitioners and get rebuffed a few times, then you are likely to see Buddhism as somehow "excluding" you. Depending on past conditioning, cultural barriers or not knowing how to approach monastics will do that for some people. Conversely, "Buddhism" is of such vast scope that if you are persistent and determined, you can probably find a more congenial group or set of practices which make you feel included. As Retro points out, everyone will be able to gain something from the teachings, but not everyone will be able to gain everything.
No no no. You're talking like an egalitarian democrat who believes that at their core, all people are somehow capable of the same. That everyone has some kind of "true nature" and an "innate potential for enlightenment". You'll remember that Thanissaro Bhikkhu argues strongly against that.
I'm not saying that at all. I don't believe all people are capable of the same things, or that anyone has any kind of "true nature".
It's because of that outlook of yours that you can blame people's failure in Buddhism on their bad attitude toward Buddhists. That if only they'd try harder, they'd see that Buddhism is true.
As you have misattributed a non-existent outlook to me, it's not surprising that this bit is wrong too.
Guess what? They say the same kind of thing in every other religion.
The same applies, although I ought to point out that they don't attribute failure to past kamma in Christianity and Islam.
There are Buddhists who "exclude certain types of people and rule them out as unworthy or incapable of understanding or following or achieving some specified bits of the Dhamma". And these people don't even have to interact with Buddhists in any way. These claims of exclusion can be found in the way Buddhists describe outsiders or puthujjanas.
Of course. Who could doubt it? Taking due account of impermanence, I see lots of people in this way.
I don't feel excluded from Buddhism because of my "bad experiences with Buddhists". Bah, that's shallow.
That's fine. I have no particular interest in your feelings of exclusion, and my post does not address them.
all other proposed "solutions" to the problem of suffering are rejected as inadequate.
Yes.
Do not be yoked together with unbelievers!
Or waste one's time with stupid people.
Which is a frequent truism that doesn't explain anything.
It would do, if you understood it.

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DNS
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Re: Is Buddhism exclusive ?

Post by DNS » Mon May 21, 2018 9:33 pm

The Buddha is said to have been somewhat reluctant to teach due to everyone going around "sleep-walking" but was encouraged to teach due to some with "little dust in their eyes." In this way, it can be seen as somewhat exclusive and elitist in that people have to be ready for it.

However, as others have noted, he adjusts his teachings based on different temperaments and the different schools of Buddhism can be seen as methods toward awakening based on what suits them best.

rightviewftw
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Re: Is Buddhism exclusive ?

Post by rightviewftw » Mon May 21, 2018 9:50 pm

binocular wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 7:29 pm
You're just making statements of faith. I can talk to a Christian and they will, with the same confidence as you here, assure me that Christianity is true, comprehensive, etc..
I think it is very rude to basically claim that the Dhamma does not invite verification and going beyond doubt. You can believe what you want tho, does not make it true.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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cappuccino
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Re: Is Buddhism exclusive ?

Post by cappuccino » Mon May 21, 2018 10:24 pm

binocular wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 7:29 pm
You're just making statements of faith. I can talk to a Christian and they will, with the same confidence as you here, assure me that Christianity is true
Christianity is beneficial.

Christians hope others will benefit.

Atheists are wary of benefit.

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cappuccino
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Re: Is Buddhism exclusive ?

Post by cappuccino » Mon May 21, 2018 10:29 pm

Buddhism is an opportunity. Nothing is more beneficial…

Nothing is more wasteful than… wasting this opportunity.

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mikenz66
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Re: Is Buddhism exclusive ?

Post by mikenz66 » Mon May 21, 2018 11:10 pm

binocular wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 8:00 pm
Placing people's particular passions and obsessions on par with Buddhism seems rather perverse, though.
It seems to me that people like Hawking pursue their particular quest for truth single mindedly and continuously. One might, of course, argue about whether the particular quest is worthwhile, or whether it will bring them happiness, but it was the full-time single mindedness that I was thinking of when comparing such people with dedicated pursuers of the Dhamma.

:heart:
Mike

James Tan
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Re: Is Buddhism exclusive ?

Post by James Tan » Tue May 22, 2018 1:24 am

In Buddhism , buddhist sustain that life is meaningless and pursue to end the re-emergence
of future life . It doesn't focus on origins of life
. Although , the dhamma in certain aspects is in coherent with our experience in a way , but , as per Theravada concept sometimes it does lean more towards annihilation at the end . There is no joy in the life and in practicing the dhamma because everything is suffering .
Mahayana and Vajrayana on the other hand , is more inclusive and provide a broader range .

In Christianity , you don't have to think too much ,
Surrender to Jesus and God and you will be fine .
You came from God and you return to Him in His forever Kingdom . There is a Final happiness and this is a big consolation to many. Ultimately , one just embraces God and the journey in life without much weariness .
Last edited by James Tan on Tue May 22, 2018 1:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
:reading:

rightviewftw
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Re: Is Buddhism exclusive ?

Post by rightviewftw » Tue May 22, 2018 1:44 am

James Tan wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 1:24 am
...There is no joy in the life and in practicing the dhamma because everything is suffering .
you should try it before you talk about what the practice is and isnt
Dhp chapter 5, v373
For a bhikkhu with a peaceful mind, Who enters an empty dwelling And clearly sees the true Dharma, There is superhuman joy
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

James Tan
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Re: Is Buddhism exclusive ?

Post by James Tan » Tue May 22, 2018 1:49 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 1:44 am
James Tan wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 1:24 am
...There is no joy in the life and in practicing the dhamma because everything is suffering .
you should try it before you talk about what the practice is and isnt
Dhp chapter 5
For a bhikkhu with a peaceful mind, Who enters an empty dwelling And clearly sees the true Dharma, There is superhuman joy
Please ask any buddhist with ten or twenty years experience in Buddhism how they feel ? Before anyone attain any absorption , what joy do they have ?
:reading:

rightviewftw
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Re: Is Buddhism exclusive ?

Post by rightviewftw » Tue May 22, 2018 1:52 am

James Tan wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 1:49 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 1:44 am
James Tan wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 1:24 am
...There is no joy in the life and in practicing the dhamma because everything is suffering .
you should try it before you talk about what the practice is and isnt
Dhp chapter 5
For a bhikkhu with a peaceful mind, Who enters an empty dwelling And clearly sees the true Dharma, There is superhuman joy
..Before anyone attain any absorption , what joy do they have ?
joy of renunciation, joy of non-regret, first 4 factored jhana, second 4 factored jhana, 3rd four factored jhana, 4th four factored jhana
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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mikenz66
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Re: Is Buddhism exclusive ?

Post by mikenz66 » Tue May 22, 2018 6:35 am

James Tan wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 1:49 am


Please ask any buddhist with ten or twenty years experience in Buddhism how they feel ? Before anyone attain any absorption , what joy do they have ?
Do you actually know people who have been practising for 20 years without feeling positive effects?

I've never met such a person, and I can't imagine why such a person would continue.

Perhaps they missed the suttas on happiness in the present life....

viewtopic.php?f=25&t=14640

Mike

James Tan
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Re: Is Buddhism exclusive ?

Post by James Tan » Tue May 22, 2018 7:00 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 6:35 am
James Tan wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 1:49 am


Please ask any buddhist with ten or twenty years experience in Buddhism how they feel ? Before anyone attain any absorption , what joy do they have ?
Do you actually know people who have been practising for 20 years without feeling positive effects?

I've never met such a person, and I can't imagine why such a person would continue.

Perhaps they missed the suttas on happiness in the present life....

viewtopic.php?f=25&t=14640

Mike
Have you ever met someone disrobe after over ten or fifteen years in monkhood ?
If they are so happy , no reason to leave the monastic life !
Too many you can find . Or you don't pay attention at all.
:reading:

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mikenz66
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Re: Is Buddhism exclusive ?

Post by mikenz66 » Tue May 22, 2018 8:53 am

James Tan wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 7:00 am
Have you ever met someone disrobe after over ten or fifteen years in monkhood ?
If they are so happy , no reason to leave the monastic life !
Too many you can find . Or you don't pay attention at all.
Of course, I know several people who have disrobed, and some who have rerobed after disrobing...

Disrobing is a completely different issue. Your original post seemed to suggest that the majority of practicing Buddhists saw no benefit, which is not my experience.

:heart:
Mike

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