Are the asavas the default state of mind?

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budo
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Are the asavas the default state of mind?

Post by budo » Sat May 19, 2018 12:03 pm

How come we are not born enlightened, and are the three asavas and 10 fetters the default state of mind? Greed and anger serve the survival and reproduction mechanisms we have. Buddhism is quite anti-natural in this regard as the prime directive of all life is to survive and reproduce.

Nature simply wants you to survive until adulthood, reproduce, and die. Nature isn't concerned with suffering unless it threatens your survival, and thus nature is inherently selfish it doesn't care for other's suffering only its own, when the subject's survival is in danger it is permitted to dole out suffering in defense.

So is it in our nature to be deluded or ignorant? and how can one be deluded or ignorant if they are living according to their nature? Wouldn't delusion be the opposite of what is natural? So as long you're surviving and reproducing then you are not deluded. According to nature delusion would be what leads to your pre-mature death and inability to reproduce.

If everyone was enlightened then there would simply be no existence, no movement, no life, no body, there would be no reason to maintain survival and reproduction..

So buddhism is quite anti-natural, the complete opposite would be Natives living in the forest like animals, breeding, killing, hunting, producing, etc..

Either your goal is to survive or to eliminate suffering, but I think the two are mutually exclusive. You could remove all clinging and just sit in a room until your body wastes away, or let other people suffer for you, such as when they kill or farm for your food, deal with the stress of money, deal with the stress of society, etc.. and in a sense that's more selfish to let others pay for the cost of your existence with their suffering and then feed you. If you truly had no greed you would surely reject such a proposal and thus allow yourself to die, no?

Modern society tries to maximize survival while minimizing stress, but unless you're a robot feeding on solar energy, and never require maintenance or external resources aside from the sun, then it's not possible to fully eliminate stress in everyone and survive at the same time. Is this why Arahants die within 7 days unless they ordain?

You may say that there are wholesome desires, but survival cannot be wholesome as it produces stress, for you to survive others must die, whether in the form of meat or in the form of labouring and incurring stress for your existence.

So I guess I answered my own question, if we were enlightened we wouldn't be born at all in the first place, thus it is not possible to be born enlightened.

Just some thoughts, what do you think?

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ryanM
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Re: Are the asavas the default state of mind?

Post by ryanM » Sat May 19, 2018 6:28 pm

I had ice cream today :tongue:
sabbe dhammā nālaṃ abhinivesāya

"nothing whatsoever should be clung to"

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budo
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Re: Are the asavas the default state of mind?

Post by budo » Sat May 19, 2018 7:41 pm

I had coffee, that's what made me write this post.

santa100
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Re: Are the asavas the default state of mind?

Post by santa100 » Sat May 19, 2018 8:11 pm

If a car is still running, then it's true that it still has fuel in its tank as the default. Of course there's the exception of the "Arahant car" that still keeps running a bit longer after it has depleted all its "fuel" due to residual momentum but it will soon come to a full stop. Another important point is that the "fuel" arn't just exclusively negative defilements. They could also be "positive" defilements like clinging/attachments to wholesome deeds, to jhanic states/attainments, etc. The bad fuel will steer the car toward some real nasty terrains, while the good fuel toward some nicer ones, but they're all still "terrains", nevertheless.

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cappuccino
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Re: Are the asavas the default state of mind?

Post by cappuccino » Sat May 19, 2018 8:37 pm

there is no default

there is a beforelife and an afterlife
neither eternal identity, nor annihilation

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DooDoot
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Re: Are the asavas the default state of mind?

Post by DooDoot » Sat May 19, 2018 8:40 pm

budo wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 12:03 pm
So I guess I answered my own question, if we were enlightened we wouldn't be born at all in the first place, thus it is not possible to be born enlightened.
My immediate thought was the same as the above, i.e., you answered your own question. I think the error in your view is you seem to believe Buddhism expects people to have no asavas (defilements). In reality, Buddhism seems to be saying the same as you, namely, there are survival instincts (anusaya; asava), both wholesome & unwholesome. However, what Buddhism also says is these survival instincts also cause suffering; such as when separated from the loved or the desired; not getting what is wanted; and experiencing aging & death.

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BasementBuddhist
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Re: Are the asavas the default state of mind?

Post by BasementBuddhist » Sat May 19, 2018 8:45 pm

Whatever is going on in the mind is the state of the mind. You're getting too caught up in this is this, this is that, and defining things. Stop theorizing, and just focus on what is. What is the default state of a tree? What is the default state of the ocean? Things are what they are.

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Re: Are the asavas the default state of mind?

Post by paul » Sat May 19, 2018 8:47 pm

Due to widely differing levels of spiritual development, realistically only a small number of beings are open to the teaching at any given time, i.e. those that see disgrace and danger in the conventional world:

“Then the Blessed One, having understood Brahma's invitation, out of compassion for beings, surveyed the world with the eye of an Awakened One. As he did so, he saw beings with little dust in their eyes and those with much, those with keen faculties and those with dull, those with good attributes and those with bad, those easy to teach and those hard, some of them seeing disgrace and danger in the other world. Just as in a pond of blue or red or white lotuses, some lotuses — born and growing in the water — might flourish while immersed in the water, without rising up from the water; some might stand at an even level with the water; while some might rise up from the water and stand without being smeared by the water — so too, surveying the world with the eye of an Awakened One, the Blessed One saw beings with little dust in their eyes and those with much, those with keen faculties and those with dull, those with good attributes and those with bad, those easy to teach and those hard, some of them seeing disgrace and danger in the other world.”—-SN 6:1

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Re: Are the asavas the default state of mind?

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Sun May 20, 2018 3:42 am

"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

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DooDoot
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Re: Are the asavas the default state of mind?

Post by DooDoot » Sun May 20, 2018 3:56 am

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 3:42 am
the origin of the world is unconjecturable

Lokacintā, bhikkhave, acinteyyā, na cintetabbā;

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
AN 4.77 does not mention "origin" of the world. SN 12.44 seems to clearly say "asava" are the origin (samudaya) of the world.
Dwelling at Savatthi. There the Blessed One addressed the monks: "I will teach you the origination of the world & the ending of the world. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak."

"As you say, lord," the monks responded to the Blessed One.

The Blessed One said: "And what is the origination of the world? Dependent on the eye & forms there arises eye-consciousness. The meeting of the three is contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging. From clinging as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. This is the origination of the world.

"Dependent on the ear & sounds there arises ear-consciousness. The meeting of the three is contact... Dependent on the nose & aromas there arises nose-consciousness. The meeting of the three is contact... Dependent on the tongue & flavors there arises tongue-consciousness. The meeting of the three is contact... Dependent on the body & tactile sensations there arises body-consciousness. The meeting of the three is contact... Dependent on the intellect & mental qualities there arises intellect-consciousness. The meeting of the three is contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging. From clinging as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. This is the origination of the world.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
:alien:
Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 3:42 am
the mind is luminous https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
This sutta seems to say the luminous mind is defiled by "asava".
"Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is defiled by incoming defilements."
:alien:
Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 3:42 am
ignorance has a nutriment https://suttacentral.net/an10.61/en/bodhi
Ignorance is an "asava" that does not have a knowable cause (hetu).
‘A first point of ignorance, bhikkhus, is not seen such that before this there was no ignorance and afterward it came into being.’

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xofz
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Re: Are the asavas the default state of mind?

Post by xofz » Sun May 20, 2018 7:53 am

(you don't die in the deathless state)



(even if you don't ordain)
My real life name is Sam.

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