no birth without rebirth

[sentinel]

I recall there is a sutta saying that the Buddha remembered he was a stream entry in previous life , I can't remember which sutta .

Maybe you can't remember because there might be no such sutta.

Hi doodoot ,

Here I think I manage to find out the sutta .

SA 287
The Ancient way of the noble one

https://suttacentral.net/sa287/en/choong


thus have i heard.

At one time, the Buddha was staying at Jetavana, Anāthapiṇḍika’s park at Śrāvastī.

Then, the World-Honoured One said to the monks: “I recollect that once, before I had attained the highest enlightenment, when alone in a quiet place, concentrated energetically on meditation, I had this thought:

“Because of the existence of what dharma (nature of phenomena), do aging-and-death come to be? Conditioned by what dharma, do aging-and-death come to be?

“Then, rightly thinking, I came to grasp the nature of phenomena as they really are, directly: Because birth exists, aging-and-death exist; conditioned by birth, aging-and-death exist; and similarly for becoming, attachment, craving, feeling, contact, the six sense-spheres, name-and-material form.

“Because of the existence of what dharma do name-and-material form exist? Conditioned by what dharma do name-and-material form come to be?

...........................................................................


https://suttacentral.net/sn12.65/en/bodhi

SN 12.65
The City

At Savatthī. “Bhikkhus, before my enlightenment, while I was still a bodhisatta, not yet fully enlightened, it occurred to me: ‘Alas, this world has fallen into trouble, in that it is born, ages, and dies, it passes away and is reborn, yet it does not understand the escape from this suffering headed by aging-and-death. When now will an escape be discerned from this suffering headed by aging-and-death?’

“Then, bhikkhus, it occurred to me: ‘When what exists does aging-and-death come to be? By what is aging-and-death conditioned? ’ Then, bhikkhus, through careful attention, there took place in me a breakthrough by wisdom: ‘When there is birth, aging-and-death comes to be; aging-and-death has birth as its condition.’

“Then, bhikkhus, it occurred to me: ‘When what exists does birth come to be?… existence?… clinging?… craving?… feeling?… contact?… the six sense bases?… name-and-form? By what is name-and-form conditioned?’ Then, bhikkhus, through careful attention, there took place in me a breakthrough by wisdom: ‘When there is consciousness, name-and-form comes to be; name-and-form has consciousness as its condition.’

“Then, bhikkhus, it occurred to me: ‘When what exists does consciousness come to be? By what is consciousness conditioned? ’ Then, bhikkhus, through careful attention, there took place in me a breakthrough by wisdom: ‘When there is name-and-form, consciousness comes to be; consciousness has name-and-form as its condition.’

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

“Then, bhikkhus, it occurred to me: ‘I have discovered this path to enlightenment, that is, with the cessation of name-and-form comes cessation of consciousness; with the cessation of consciousness comes cessation of name-and-form; with the cessation of name-and-form, cessation of the six sense bases; with the cessation of the six sense bases, cessation of contact…. Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering.’

[mikenz66]

I recall there is a sutta saying that the Buddha remembered he was a stream entry in previous life , I can't remember which sutta .

https://suttacentral.net/sn12.65/en/bodhi

SN 12.65
The City

At Savatthī. “Bhikkhus, before my enlightenment, while I was still a bodhisatta, not yet fully enlightened, it occurred to me: ‘Alas, this world has fallen into trouble, in that it is born, ages, and dies, it passes away and is reborn, yet it does not understand the escape from this suffering headed by aging-and-death. When now will an escape be discerned from this suffering headed by aging-and-death?’ ...

Bodhisatta in such suttas is generally understood to mean in the Buddha's last life, before his awakening. Not a previous life.


Mike

[sentinel]

I recall there is a sutta saying that the Buddha remembered he was a stream entry in previous life , I can't remember which sutta .

https://suttacentral.net/sn12.65/en/bodhi

SN 12.65
The City

At Savatthī. “Bhikkhus, before my enlightenment, while I was still a bodhisatta, not yet fully enlightened, it occurred to me: ‘Alas, this world has fallen into trouble, in that it is born, ages, and dies, it passes away and is reborn, yet it does not understand the escape from this suffering headed by aging-and-death. When now will an escape be discerned from this suffering headed by aging-and-death?’ ...

Bodhisatta in such suttas is generally understood to mean in the Buddha's last life, before his awakening. Not a previous life.


Mike

I am not sure about Pali , but in Chinese Agama , the meaning is previous life !

[Dhammanando]

Hi doodoot , if third jhana is the threshold for one to attain clear sati , this is not difficult for bodhisatta .

I think this talk of the third jhāna is a bit of a red herring. The phrase "mindful and clearly comprehending " (sato sampajāno) is used in many suttas that are not concerned with the third (or any other) jhāna, but rather with the approach to jhāna (i.e., with the surmounting of the five hindrances):

“Having gone to the forest, to the foot of a tree, or to an empty hut, he sits down, folding his legs crosswise, straightening his body, and establishing mindfulness in front of him. Having abandoned longing for the world, he dwells with a mind free from longing; he purifies his mind from longing. Having abandoned ill will and hatred, he dwells with a mind free from ill will, compassionate for the welfare of all living beings; he purifies his mind from ill will and hatred. Having abandoned dullness and drowsiness, he dwells free from dullness and drowsiness, percipient of light, mindful and clearly comprehending; he purifies his mind from dullness and drowsiness. Having abandoned restlessness and remorse, he dwells without agitation, with a mind inwardly peaceful; he purifies his mind from restlessness and remorse. Having abandoned doubt, he dwells having gone beyond doubt, unperplexed about wholesome qualities; he purifies his mind from doubt.
(Upāli Sutta, AN. v. 201-9)

... and in many other suttas that have nothing to do with jhāna at all:
.

Then the Blessed One folded his outer robe in four and lay down on his right side in the lion’s posture, with one foot overlapping the other, mindful and clearly comprehending, after noting in his mind the idea of rising.
(Naḷakapāna Sutta, AN. v. 123)

.

“And how does a bhikkhu possess six factors? Here, having seen a form with the eye, a bhikkhu is neither joyful nor saddened, but dwells equanimous, mindful and clearly comprehending. Having heard a sound with the ear … Having smelled an odor with the nose … Having experienced a taste with the tongue … Having felt a tactile object with the body … Having cognized a mental phenomenon with the mind, a bhikkhu is neither joyful nor saddened, but dwells equanimous, mindful and clearly comprehending. It is in this way that a bhikkhu possesses six factors.
(Ariyāvāsa Sutta, AN. v. 30-2)

I recall there is a sutta saying that the Buddha remembered he was a stream entry in previous life , I can't remember which sutta.

The belief that a certain stage arrived at early in a Bodhisattva's career is the equivalent of stream-entry is a doctrinal innovation peculiar to the Mahayana's daśa-bhūmi conception of the path to Buddhahood. It's not to be found in any early Buddhist texts.

[sentinel]

Hi doodoot , if third jhana is the threshold for one to attain clear sati , this is not difficult for bodhisatta .

I think this talk of the third jhāna is a bit of a red herring. The phrase "mindful and clearly comprehending " (sato sampajāno) is used in many suttas that are not concerned with the third (or any other) jhāna, but rather with the approach to jhāna (i.e., with the surmounting of the five hindrances):

“Having gone to the forest, to the foot of a tree, or to an empty hut, he sits down, folding his legs crosswise, straightening his body, and establishing mindfulness in front of him. Having abandoned longing for the world, he dwells with a mind free from longing; he purifies his mind from longing. Having abandoned ill will and hatred, he dwells with a mind free from ill will, compassionate for the welfare of all living beings; he purifies his mind from ill will and hatred. Having abandoned dullness and drowsiness, he dwells free from dullness and drowsiness, percipient of light, mindful and clearly comprehending; he purifies his mind from dullness and drowsiness. Having abandoned restlessness and remorse, he dwells without agitation, with a mind inwardly peaceful; he purifies his mind from restlessness and remorse. Having abandoned doubt, he dwells having gone beyond doubt, unperplexed about wholesome qualities; he purifies his mind from doubt.
(Upāli Sutta, AN. v. 201-9)

... and in many other suttas that have nothing to do with jhāna at all:
.

Then the Blessed One folded his outer robe in four and lay down on his right side in the lion’s posture, with one foot overlapping the other, mindful and clearly comprehending, after noting in his mind the idea of rising.
(Naḷakapāna Sutta, AN. v. 123)

.

“And how does a bhikkhu possess six factors? Here, having seen a form with the eye, a bhikkhu is neither joyful nor saddened, but dwells equanimous, mindful and clearly comprehending. Having heard a sound with the ear … Having smelled an odor with the nose … Having experienced a taste with the tongue … Having felt a tactile object with the body … Having cognized a mental phenomenon with the mind, a bhikkhu is neither joyful nor saddened, but dwells equanimous, mindful and clearly comprehending. It is in this way that a bhikkhu possesses six factors.
(Ariyāvāsa Sutta, AN. v. 30-2)

I recall there is a sutta saying that the Buddha remembered he was a stream entry in previous life , I can't remember which sutta.

The belief that a certain stage arrived at early in a Bodhisattva's career is the equivalent of stream-entry is a doctrinal innovation peculiar to the Mahayana's daśa-bhūmi conception of the path to Buddhahood. It's not to be found in any early Buddhist texts.

Bhante,


1. Does the above mentioned mindful and clear comprehending is something Different from the Right Sati in the noble 8FP ?
2. Does the bodhisatta when entering the womb , remains in the womb and exiting the womb with clear comprehension was a makeup ?
3. Is it possible for a practitioner to be able to perform this clear sati while entering , remaining and exiting the womb then ?
4. And this has nothing to do with 3rd jhana which is a requisite attaining clear sati ?
5. Do you mind explaining what ghandabba is ?

[Garrib]

What you wrote, again, has no basis in experience or reality.

That's quite the proclamation. I guess by contrast I am meant to assume that everything you say has a "basis in experience and reality" ?

May you be well.

[Dhammanando]

1. Does the above mentioned mindful and clear comprehending is something Different from the Right Sati in the noble 8FP ?

Yes. Mindfulness and clear comprehension can exist in other modes than as path factors. One example would be when jhāna is being developed by a yogi following an outside teaching.

2. Does the bodhisatta when entering the womb , remains in the womb and exiting the womb with clear comprehension was a makeup ?

I think there's no doubt that the early saṅgha believed the Buddha's final birth to have been rather special in nature and not the common-or-garden sort. The narrative you mention is preserved in four out of the five nikāyas of the Sutta Piṭaka (i.e., all of them except the Saṃyutta), making its status as orthodox teaching pretty well unassailable.

3. Is it possible for a practitioner to be able to perform this clear sati while entering , remaining and exiting the womb then ?

Not for any old practitioner. The Sampasādanīya and Saṅgīti Suttas describe four kinds of descent into the womb:

• A certain one descends without awareness (asampajāno) into the mother’s womb, stays in it without awareness, and leaves it without awareness.
  
  A certain one descends with awareness (sampajāno) into the mother’s womb, stays in it without awareness, and leaves it without awareness.
  
  A certain one descends with awareness into the mother’s womb, stays in it with awareness, and leaves it without awareness.
  
  A certain one descends with awareness into the mother’s womb, stays in it with awareness, and leaves it with awareness.

According to the commentaries the first applies to ordinary people; the second to the Buddha’s eighty Great Disciples; the third to the Buddha’s two Chief Disciples, along with Paccekabodhisattas in their final birth and Sabbaññū Bodhisattas in all their births except the final one; the fourth applies only to Sabbaññū Bodhisattas in their final birth.

4. And this has nothing to do with 3rd jhana which is a requisite attaining clear sati ?

As I said earlier, this is a red herring. A relinking consciousness for a human rebirth is never a jhānic consciousness.

5. Do you mind explaining what ghandabba is ?

Among Indian Buddhist schools a gandhabba/gandharva was universally understood to be a deceased being who was about to be reborn. I don't think there were any dissenting opinions on this point.

What they did disagree about was the nature of the being in question. The schools which held to the doctrine of an intermediate state claimed that it was a subtle-bodied being or (in the case of the Pudgalavādins) an indescribable being who was waiting in that intermediate state. The schools which held to instantaneous rebirth (which includes the Theravāda) maintained that it was only conventional truth to speak of the gandhabba as a being; in ultimate truth the gandhabba was a term for the rebirth-linking consciousness.

By the way, the article on the gandhabba by Wijesekera (the one praised by Bhikkhus Bodhi and Sujāto) is available online. You'll find it on pages 176-212 of his Buddhist and Vedic Studies.

https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.463583

[Dhammarakkhito]

hmm, could it be that jotipāla (bodhisatta) attained stream entry under kassapa buddha?

[DooDoot]

That's quite the proclamation. I guess by contrast I am meant to assume that everything you say has a "basis in experience and reality" ?

Like a fundamentalist Christian attempting to convince me about the reality of "God" or a Cultural Marxist attempting to preach the (imagined) virtues of Feminism, you didn't post anything that accords with my experience of life and what I perceive as the experience of life of others. Whenever suffering has occurred in my life; the causes are quite clearly obviously at the present time in relation to known or knowable sense objects. As for what I write, it is certainly real. That I think suffering occurs due to ignorance, craving & attachment in the present moment is something I consider to be very real. I have never ever suffered in life so to imagine a cause of that suffering to be in a past life. Not once. Kind regards

According to the commentaries the first applies to ordinary people; the second to the Buddha’s eighty Great Disciples; the third to the Buddha’s two Chief Disciples, along with Paccekabodhisattas in their final birth and Sabbaññū Bodhisattas in all their births except the final one; the fourth applies only to Sabbaññū Bodhisattas in their final birth.

Thank you Venerable for the above.

[Dhammanando]

hmm, could it be that jotipāla (bodhisatta) attained stream entry under kassapa buddha?

If he had, then he would have stayed around for only seven lives at the most. As it is, no such thing is mentioned in either of the Ghaṭīkāra Suttas (M.ii.46-8; S.i.34-5), which report only that Jotipāla was inspired with Kassapa Buddha's teaching and became a bhikkhu.

The Buddhavaṃsa (Bu. 62) adds that he mastered the ninefold dispensation and that Kassapa Buddha predicted his buddhahood.

The Milindapañha (Mil. 223) has him attaining the samāpattis and mundane abhiññās, and then getting reborn in the Brahmā world. It's also (along with the Apadāna) the source of the belief that it was Jotipāla's insulting speech about Kassapa that made it necessary for him to practise austerities for six years as Gotama.

[Garrib]

That's quite the proclamation. I guess by contrast I am meant to assume that everything you say has a "basis in experience and reality" ?

Like a fundamentalist Christian attempting to convince me about the reality of "God" or a Cultural Marxist attempting to preach the (imagined) virtues of Feminism, you didn't post anything that accords with my experience of life and what I perceive as the experience of life of others. Whenever suffering has occurred in my life; the causes are quite clearly obviously at the present time in relation to known or knowable sense objects. As for what I write, it is certainly real. That I think suffering occurs due to ignorance, craving & attachment in the present moment is something I consider to be very real. I have never ever suffered in life so to imagine a cause of that suffering to be in a past life. Not once. Kind regards

I don't recall having ever attempted to convince you of anything, I offered what I thought was a straightforward interpretation of the sutta passage in question. I wasn't expecting it to cause such offense or backlash. Please forgive me.

[sentinel]

1. Does the above mentioned mindful and clear comprehending is something Different from the Right Sati in the noble 8FP ?

Yes. Mindfulness and clear comprehension can exist in other modes than as path factors. One example would be when jhāna is being developed by a yogi following an outside teaching.

2. Does the bodhisatta when entering the womb , remains in the womb and exiting the womb with clear comprehension was a makeup ?

I think there's no doubt that the early saṅgha believed the Buddha's final birth to have been rather special in nature and not the common-or-garden sort. The narrative you mention is preserved in four out of the five nikāyas of the Sutta Piṭaka (i.e., all of them except the Saṃyutta), making its status as orthodox teaching pretty well unassailable.

3. Is it possible for a practitioner to be able to perform this clear sati while entering , remaining and exiting the womb then ?

Not for any old practitioner. The Sampasādanīya and Saṅgīti Suttas describe four kinds of descent into the womb:

• A certain one descends without awareness (asampajāno) into the mother’s womb, stays in it without awareness, and leaves it without awareness.
  
  A certain one descends with awareness (sampajāno) into the mother’s womb, stays in it without awareness, and leaves it without awareness.
  
  A certain one descends with awareness into the mother’s womb, stays in it with awareness, and leaves it without awareness.
  
  A certain one descends with awareness into the mother’s womb, stays in it with awareness, and leaves it with awareness.

According to the commentaries the first applies to ordinary people; the second to the Buddha’s eighty Great Disciples; the third to the Buddha’s two Chief Disciples, along with Paccekabodhisattas in their final birth and Sabbaññū Bodhisattas in all their births except the final one; the fourth applies only to Sabbaññū Bodhisattas in their final birth.

4. And this has nothing to do with 3rd jhana which is a requisite attaining clear sati ?

As I said earlier, this is a red herring. A relinking consciousness for a human rebirth is never a jhānic consciousness.

5. Do you mind explaining what ghandabba is ?

Among Indian Buddhist schools a gandhabba/gandharva was universally understood to be a deceased being who was about to be reborn. I don't think there were any dissenting opinions on this point.

What they did disagree about was the nature of the being in question. The schools which held to the doctrine of an intermediate state claimed that it was a subtle-bodied being or (in the case of the Pudgalavādins) an indescribable being who was waiting in that intermediate state. The schools which held to instantaneous rebirth (which includes the Theravāda) maintained that it was only conventional truth to speak of the gandhabba as a being; in ultimate truth the gandhabba was a term for the rebirth-linking consciousness.

By the way, the article on the gandhabba by Wijesekera (the one praised by Bhikkhus Bodhi and Sujāto) is available online. You'll find it on pages 176-212 of his Buddhist and Vedic Studies.

https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.463583

Bhante ,
Thank you for your kind reply .

But , what is the meaning of old practioner ?
Is there actually such a thing as Relinking consciousness for rebirth ?
I would like to ask if there is a intermediate state or only instantaneous rebirth in your opinion ?

[Dhammanando]

But , what is the meaning of old practioner ?

The phrase I used was: "any old practitioner". In colloquial English "any old X" means "any X whatever" or "any X at all".

Is there actually such a thing as Relinking consciousness for rebirth ?

Well, it isn't something that I've personally verified. Still, if rebirth happens, then it has to happen somehow. As an explanation of the mechanism for it, the Theravāda's relinking consciousness conception seems no less plausible than any the various competitors posited by other Buddhist schools, and indeed rather more plausible than some.

I would like to ask if there is a intermediate state or only instantaneous rebirth in your opinion ?

My belief (and that of Theravāda orthodoxy) is that all rebirths are instantaneous. I suspect that the concept of an intermediate state was invented by corrupt branches of the sangha, probably with the aim of: (1) pandering to the desires of mourners for a more consolatory view of the afterlife and (2) making money out of them. (I won't, however, be drawn into an argument on the subject, for it's already been flogged to death).

[Saengnapha]

But , what is the meaning of old practioner ?

The phrase I used was: "any old practitioner". In colloquial English "any old X" means "any X whatever" or "any X at all".

Is there actually such a thing as Relinking consciousness for rebirth ?

Well, it isn't something that I've personally verified. Still, if rebirth happens, then it has to happen somehow. As an explanation of the mechanism for it, the Theravāda's relinking consciousness conception seems no less plausible than any the various competitors posited by other Buddhist schools, and indeed rather more plausible than some.

I would like to ask if there is a intermediate state or only instantaneous rebirth in your opinion ?

My belief (and that of Theravāda orthodoxy) is that all rebirths are instantaneous. I suspect that the concept of an intermediate state was invented by corrupt branches of the sangha, probably with the aim of: (1) pandering to the desires of mourners for a more consolatory view of the afterlife and (2) making money out of them. (I won't, however, be drawn into an argument on the subject, for it's already been flogged to death).

Now there's a new wrinkle added to the pile of beliefs. For me, Time is a problematic concept because of all that it implies. My ears instantaneously perked up when I read what you just said.

[sentinel]

But , what is the meaning of old practioner ?

The phrase I used was: "any old practitioner". In colloquial English "any old X" means "any X whatever" or "any X at all".

Is there actually such a thing as Relinking consciousness for rebirth ?

Well, it isn't something that I've personally verified. Still, if rebirth happens, then it has to happen somehow. As an explanation of the mechanism for it, the Theravāda's relinking consciousness conception seems no less plausible than any the various competitors posited by other Buddhist schools, and indeed rather more plausible than some.

I would like to ask if there is a intermediate state or only instantaneous rebirth in your opinion ?

My belief (and that of Theravāda orthodoxy) is that all rebirths are instantaneous. I suspect that the concept of an intermediate state was invented by corrupt branches of the sangha, probably with the aim of: (1) pandering to the desires of mourners for a more consolatory view of the afterlife and (2) making money out of them. (I won't, however, be drawn into an argument on the subject, for it's already been flogged to death).

OK thanks bhante . It seems Buddha never really provide details of this account of events .