no birth without rebirth

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Garrib
Posts: 485
Joined: Mon May 30, 2016 8:35 pm

Re: no birth without rebirth

Post by Garrib » Sat May 19, 2018 3:48 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 7:32 am
Garrib wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 3:14 pm
That's quite the proclamation. I guess by contrast I am meant to assume that everything you say has a "basis in experience and reality" ?
Like a fundamentalist Christian attempting to convince me about the reality of "God" or a Cultural Marxist attempting to preach the (imagined) virtues of Feminism, you didn't post anything that accords with my experience of life and what I perceive as the experience of life of others. Whenever suffering has occurred in my life; the causes are quite clearly obviously at the present time in relation to known or knowable sense objects. As for what I write, it is certainly real. That I think suffering occurs due to ignorance, craving & attachment in the present moment is something I consider to be very real. I have never ever suffered in life so to imagine a cause of that suffering to be in a past life. Not once. Kind regards
I don't recall having ever attempted to convince you of anything, I offered what I thought was a straightforward interpretation of the sutta passage in question. I wasn't expecting it to cause such offense or backlash. Please forgive me.

James Tan
Posts: 941
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Re: no birth without rebirth

Post by James Tan » Sat May 19, 2018 4:59 pm

Dhammanando wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 6:56 pm
James Tan wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 2:48 pm
1. Does the above mentioned mindful and clear comprehending is something Different from the Right Sati in the noble 8FP ?
Yes. Mindfulness and clear comprehension can exist in other modes than as path factors. One example would be when jhāna is being developed by a yogi following an outside teaching.
James Tan wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 2:48 pm
2. Does the bodhisatta when entering the womb , remains in the womb and exiting the womb with clear comprehension was a makeup ?
I think there's no doubt that the early saṅgha believed the Buddha's final birth to have been rather special in nature and not the common-or-garden sort. The narrative you mention is preserved in four out of the five nikāyas of the Sutta Piṭaka (i.e., all of them except the Saṃyutta), making its status as orthodox teaching pretty well unassailable.
James Tan wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 2:48 pm
3. Is it possible for a practitioner to be able to perform this clear sati while entering , remaining and exiting the womb then ?
Not for any old practitioner. The Sampasādanīya and Saṅgīti Suttas describe four kinds of descent into the womb:
  • A certain one descends without awareness (asampajāno) into the mother’s womb, stays in it without awareness, and leaves it without awareness.

    A certain one descends with awareness (sampajāno) into the mother’s womb, stays in it without awareness, and leaves it without awareness.

    A certain one descends with awareness into the mother’s womb, stays in it with awareness, and leaves it without awareness.

    A certain one descends with awareness into the mother’s womb, stays in it with awareness, and leaves it with awareness.
According to the commentaries the first applies to ordinary people; the second to the Buddha’s eighty Great Disciples; the third to the Buddha’s two Chief Disciples, along with Paccekabodhisattas in their final birth and Sabbaññū Bodhisattas in all their births except the final one; the fourth applies only to Sabbaññū Bodhisattas in their final birth.
James Tan wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 2:48 pm
4. And this has nothing to do with 3rd jhana which is a requisite attaining clear sati ?
As I said earlier, this is a red herring. A relinking consciousness for a human rebirth is never a jhānic consciousness.
James Tan wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 2:48 pm
5. Do you mind explaining what ghandabba is ?
Among Indian Buddhist schools a gandhabba/gandharva was universally understood to be a deceased being who was about to be reborn. I don't think there were any dissenting opinions on this point.

What they did disagree about was the nature of the being in question. The schools which held to the doctrine of an intermediate state claimed that it was a subtle-bodied being or (in the case of the Pudgalavādins) an indescribable being who was waiting in that intermediate state. The schools which held to instantaneous rebirth (which includes the Theravāda) maintained that it was only conventional truth to speak of the gandhabba as a being; in ultimate truth the gandhabba was a term for the rebirth-linking consciousness.

By the way, the article on the gandhabba by Wijesekera (the one praised by Bhikkhus Bodhi and Sujāto) is available online. You'll find it on pages 176-212 of his Buddhist and Vedic Studies.

https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.463583
Bhante ,
Thank you for your kind reply .

But , what is the meaning of old practioner ?
Is there actually such a thing as Relinking consciousness for rebirth ?
I would like to ask if there is a intermediate state or only instantaneous rebirth in your opinion ?
:reading:

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Dhammanando
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Re: no birth without rebirth

Post by Dhammanando » Sat May 19, 2018 6:33 pm

James Tan wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 4:59 pm
But , what is the meaning of old practioner ?
The phrase I used was: "any old practitioner". In colloquial English "any old X" means "any X whatever" or "any X at all".
James Tan wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 4:59 pm
Is there actually such a thing as Relinking consciousness for rebirth ?
Well, it isn't something that I've personally verified. Still, if rebirth happens, then it has to happen somehow. As an explanation of the mechanism for it, the Theravāda's relinking consciousness conception seems no less plausible than any the various competitors posited by other Buddhist schools, and indeed rather more plausible than some.
James Tan wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 4:59 pm
I would like to ask if there is a intermediate state or only instantaneous rebirth in your opinion ?
My belief (and that of Theravāda orthodoxy) is that all rebirths are instantaneous. I suspect that the concept of an intermediate state was invented by corrupt branches of the sangha, probably with the aim of: (1) pandering to the desires of mourners for a more consolatory view of the afterlife and (2) making money out of them. (I won't, however, be drawn into an argument on the subject, for it's already been flogged to death).

Saengnapha
Posts: 1350
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Re: no birth without rebirth

Post by Saengnapha » Sun May 20, 2018 2:18 pm

Dhammanando wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 6:33 pm
James Tan wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 4:59 pm
But , what is the meaning of old practioner ?
The phrase I used was: "any old practitioner". In colloquial English "any old X" means "any X whatever" or "any X at all".
James Tan wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 4:59 pm
Is there actually such a thing as Relinking consciousness for rebirth ?
Well, it isn't something that I've personally verified. Still, if rebirth happens, then it has to happen somehow. As an explanation of the mechanism for it, the Theravāda's relinking consciousness conception seems no less plausible than any the various competitors posited by other Buddhist schools, and indeed rather more plausible than some.
James Tan wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 4:59 pm
I would like to ask if there is a intermediate state or only instantaneous rebirth in your opinion ?
My belief (and that of Theravāda orthodoxy) is that all rebirths are instantaneous. I suspect that the concept of an intermediate state was invented by corrupt branches of the sangha, probably with the aim of: (1) pandering to the desires of mourners for a more consolatory view of the afterlife and (2) making money out of them. (I won't, however, be drawn into an argument on the subject, for it's already been flogged to death).
Now there's a new wrinkle added to the pile of beliefs. For me, Time is a problematic concept because of all that it implies. My ears instantaneously perked up when I read what you just said.

James Tan
Posts: 941
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: no birth without rebirth

Post by James Tan » Sun May 20, 2018 3:53 pm

Dhammanando wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 6:33 pm
James Tan wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 4:59 pm
But , what is the meaning of old practioner ?
The phrase I used was: "any old practitioner". In colloquial English "any old X" means "any X whatever" or "any X at all".
James Tan wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 4:59 pm
Is there actually such a thing as Relinking consciousness for rebirth ?
Well, it isn't something that I've personally verified. Still, if rebirth happens, then it has to happen somehow. As an explanation of the mechanism for it, the Theravāda's relinking consciousness conception seems no less plausible than any the various competitors posited by other Buddhist schools, and indeed rather more plausible than some.
James Tan wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 4:59 pm
I would like to ask if there is a intermediate state or only instantaneous rebirth in your opinion ?
My belief (and that of Theravāda orthodoxy) is that all rebirths are instantaneous. I suspect that the concept of an intermediate state was invented by corrupt branches of the sangha, probably with the aim of: (1) pandering to the desires of mourners for a more consolatory view of the afterlife and (2) making money out of them. (I won't, however, be drawn into an argument on the subject, for it's already been flogged to death).
OK thanks bhante . It seems Buddha never really provide details of this account of events .
:reading:

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